Christmas in the Lone Star state has no greater defender than Attorney General Ken Paxton. So when he read my column about a middle school in Killeen that tried to censor the true meaning of Christmas, he decided it was time to jingle somebody’s bells.
First, a quick refresher on the back story:
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A staffer at Patterson Middle School was told she had to remove a poster depicting a scene from the cherished holiday classic, “A Charlie Brown Christmas.”
The door-length poster featured Linus, a scrawny tree and that beautiful recitation of the true meaning of Christmas.
“For unto you is born this day in the city of David a savior which is Christ the Lord. That’s what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown,” Linus said.
Dedra Shannon’s poster was well-received among the staff and students – but a few days later she was told by the principal that she should either have to remove the religious references or remove the entire poster.
We are a Christian nation! As such, Christmas is our day to rejoice in the birth of our savior. Those who deny our heritage are denying the values inherent in the making of this great country. To paraphrase the King James version of the Bible in Proverbs 29:18: “Where there is no faith, the people perish.”
Article [I] (Amendment 1 – Freedom of expression and religion) 13
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
And this means every government entity. They cannot post a Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or even Atheist message. Just teach our children what the need to know and keep all religion out of it except for history courses.
I agree.
The first amendment is simply:
Article [I] (Amendment 1 – Freedom of expression and religion) 13
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Which means that the government CANNOT PROHIBIT the free excercise of religion ANYWHERE.
So yes we can post Christian messages WHEREVER we want, in schools, in front of city hall, WHEREVER.
We are a country based entirely on Christian principles. We are the freest nation on earth, and in history, BECAUSE our rights come from GOD.
So why do so many misinterpret the first amendment?
“Separation of church and state” is a product of the Liberal imagination.
“Protection of church from state” is what our Constitution really intends.
The whole ‘separation of church and state’ is meaning the FEDS should not found a ‘state religion’… HOW IS A SCHOOL allowing a teacher when all the kids/fellow teachers have no issue with what’s posted, “Establishing a religion by the state’???
According to Thomas Jefferson, writing in his official capacity as the POTUS at the time, “The United States are not in any sense, a Christian nation.” The Founders, many of whom were not Christians, didn’t think so either. They established us as a “religion-neutral” nation, in which all religions (or none) were equally acceptable and all belief and worship was protected. Get over it!
Yes Trump won but you Alt-Righters still cannot do as you want. If this is allowed then when Ramadan come around you cannot complain if schools put up scriptures from Muhammad.
So Islam as a late comer is equal to America’s heritage? Get real.
Muhammad was a pedophile. You want your children to learn about a pedophile? Fine, then that’s what they should learn about the Muslim faith. How they treat their women like crap, that they find it acceptable to rape little children (especially little boys) and women. That it’s okay to mutilate their women’s genitalia? This is what they should teach during Ramadan.
I am pretty sure if a teacher wants to put up a Ramadan poster on her door no one would object. On the other hand if an American Teacher was teaching in a Muslim Country School, she would be afforded the same courtesy, right?
I take that back because an American more than likely would be beheaded for
such a crime against Muslim Religion.
Actually, in this country, or any democratic REPUBLIC, MAJORITY RULES.
Sooo, Christians, thankfully, are by far the majority in this country.
As for “not doing whatever we want,” every body lives by the same rules.
If abortion is restricted, they YOU libs can’t do whatever you want, either.
Works both ways.
First of all, don’t call people “alt-righters” unless you can define the term, prove that all the people you’re addressing fit the definition, and also prove that the people couldn’t be defined instead by a term that they prefer to use. It’s a circular argument to claim that someone who disagrees with you is an extremist, and then to define an extremist as anyone who disagrees with you.
Second, I’m old enough to remember a time before the anti-Christianity so rampant today, when yes, schools did display decorations for the different religions of students in that school. The Jews and atheists (and I was an atheist as a child) didn’t object to Christmas decorations, nor did the Christians and atheists object to the Channukah decorations. At one school I attended, there was even a Diwali display at one point. No non-Hindu objected. So yes, if there weren’t such hostility toward Christian and Jewish displays, probably no one would object to Muslim displays.
Notice, by the way, that no “separation of church and state” person complains when Muslim foot-baths are installed in public schools, or when students are forced to recite Muslim prayers as part of “multicultural” exercises. It’s when only Christians, or only Christians and Jews, are targeted that the trouble begins.
Today Religious Secular Humanism decrees adult school teachers, homosexual, transgender, abortion, pornography and promiscuous sex activists to normalize unhealthy values to malleable school children from Kindergarten to University, by Democrat Legislation, and Democrat appointed Supreme Court Injustices. We also have the enemy within, that is Democrats masquerading as Republicans, and Nicolaitans masquerading as Christians.
When Secular journalists and so on tell you they have no religious worldview which is corrupting our society beginning with Kindergarteners, they are either lying or are totally socially engineered. Their so-called “neutrality ” is dishonest. We must put in righteous people in key positions, and prevent so-called “neutral” Secularism from destroying our children, grandchildren and society. Of course they will fight us all the way in this culture war that is raging all around us for the minds, and souls of our children.
More nonsense from the CTRL-Left.
The Founding Fathers never meant for the 1st Amendment to give carte blanche to Islam. Islam is not the equal of Christianity.
And I’m sure the Muslims will make a point of pushing that forward as a national issue. Does Islam deserve the same respect as Christianity?
Of course not. It can’t. It’s not compatible with our Constitution. By protecting Islam, you become an enemy of the Constitution. There’s no way around that fact.
GRAnt, why do you need to call folks names because they disagree with you? America has a constitution that we follow regardless of who the president is.
[Notice, by the way, that no “separation of church and state” person complains when Muslim foot-baths are installed in public schools, or when students are forced to recite Muslim prayers as part of “multicultural” exercises. It’s when only Christians, or only Christians and Jews, are targeted that the trouble begins.]
Heck, remember that NY school last year that made it mandatory for students to participate in the “burka appreciation day” (or what ever it was called).. We never saw the liberal rabid atheists raise ONE IOTA of noise at that. BUT heaven forbid a teachers says “god bless you” to a student sneezing…
ltuser, that is because the Leftists are first and foremost anti-God.
All the other things they do seem disjointed and incoherent if not for that common thread. How can executing a convict be bad but killing a baby be good? Because they are defying the will of God in both cases.
Socialism is (supposedly) an attempt to make everyone equal by taking from those who have and giving to those who have not. Matthew 25 shows us the parable of the servants with the talents. God took from the one who had little and gave to the one who had much. Verse 29 tells us that was the point of the lesson. But Dems make us look like bad Christians if we cut Welfare spending for the poor. They have it all wrong, and really don’t care about pleasing God. They’re just trying to “trigger” us but it rarely works.
In the End Times, Satan will spoil the Earth and mimic God. He will appoint an anti-Christ and a false prophet. He knows the real God. He’s not going to appoint an anti-Muhammed or an anti-Allah. There is no anti-Buddha. He’s going to mimic the real God, not the false ones he created.
Grantjr67 I see you have found a way to boost your likes. Pretty Sad Dude.
Must be lonesome for people to like you.
>> Ramadan come around you cannot complain if schools put up scriptures from Muhammad. <<
When and where did that happen, Grant?
grantjr67, Islam has made no positive contribution to the United States as yet. On the contrary, it has brought Muslim terrorism to our shores and killed almost 3000 Americans at one go on 9/11.. Therefore there is nothing for American citizens to celebrate.
Why don’t you try your moronic reasoning in any of the 57 Muslim countries, telling them that they must treat Christianity as equal to Islam?
[Why don’t you try your moronic reasoning in any of the 57 Muslim countries, telling them that they must treat Christianity as equal to Islam?]
He would have a better chance of black lies mater admitting that their riots are all based o n false hoods the MEDIA perpetrated..
All I can say is: You Rebel Rousing Muslims are here because of the kindness of the American People. If you don’t like our religion then take a hike. Don’t come here to try to change us or our ways of living. Why are you here in the first place?
Oh, and Merry Christmas.
That attitude is typical of the Christian teachings of forgiveness and acceptance right? This isn’t my team is better than your team, do a little me reading in the bible and you may see what I mean.
Exactly. America was entirely based on Christian principles. Either accept and support these principles, or go back to wherever you came from.
Agree, America, love it or leave it.
440.. Tolerance, acceptance and such are supposed to be TWO WAY STREETS. Why should we accept and show forgiveness to those who have NONE FOR US??
440volt,
Will you allow a murderer and child molester who wants is directed by his faith to kill you if you do not accept his beliefs?
This is not intolerance. God says do not shackle yourself with an unbeliever.
Islam is the result of one mans attempt to justify his aberrant behavior.
There is no salvation in Islam and there is no “paradise” and there are not 72 virgin sex slaves waiting for murderers on the other side of this life.
So you go ahead and “accept” these people and their beliefs into your life and home. I choose to tell them of the one and only salvation through Jesus the Christ, and pray for their souls. But I will also kill any of them that threaten the lives and safety of other people.
drillbeast my friend, I think you have completely misunderstood me. I reject religion in all it’s various disguises. I am a baptized and confirmed member of the Lutheran church. A few years after those events I embraced the teachings of Deisim. Simply put there is no middle man (or woman) needed between me and God. No prophet of any stripe required to try to interpret my faith in the Lord.
I am in pretty good company in my beliefs. There are many famous Deists including six of America’s founding fathers, such as Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Paine, John Adams, George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin. There are still many other famous deists like, Abraham Lincoln, Neil Armstrong, Voltaire, Albert Einstein, Napoleon Bonaparte.
And I came from Spokane, Washington. I enjoy going back to where I came from.
All ya’all can keep your tribal BS, I’ll keep mine.
Even children in a public school have the right to know that the foundation of Christmas is the birth of Christ. If that hadn’t happened there would have been no St. Nicholas, Father Christmas, or Santa Claus. We wouldn’t be exchanging gifts with family and friends.
I’ll bet when the “Winter Solstice” folks promote their replacement for Christmas, the public schools will warmly embrace the idea of celebrating the day and exchanging gifts. Even today many American public schools celebrate “made in America” holidays that are attributed to foreign cultures. The true history of Christmas deserves equal exposure.
Children have a right to know what Christianity is all about, because their country was based on it’s principles.
How can your children understand American history without understanding the Christian principles it was founded upon?
They can’t.
The founding fathers were Christian. Just historical fact.
They founded this country’s govt. on the premise that our rights “are the inalienable rights endowed upon mankind by the CREATOR.” By God.
Take God out of the equation and our freedoms are no longer protected.
Children have a right to know this. They should not be lied to because a few atheists want to lie and rewrite history.
History is just that. History. WHAT REALLY HAPPENED> not what revisionists think “should have” happened.
Our children deserve the TRUTH.
Considering the time of year, the dragging in and decorating of evergreens, and that Jesus wouldn’t have been born in December the argument could be made that Christmas was borrowed from the “winter solstice” folks.
440volt with.0000000001 amps of brain power……….Christianity has yielded and continues to yield to the constant push of atheists, male and female versions of ****ots, wicians,and islamists, etc. So much so, that people have lost their livelihoods and life savings, simply because they were Christians. But your view requires us to continue yield with no yielding on your part……
The establishment clause has been interpreted incorrectly for years. The Founders all came from countries that had state established religions i.e. the Church of England. They only intended this clause to prevent the government from establishing a state religion that was the only one accepted to be practiced. In no way did they intend this to be interpreted that no government agency could make any reference to religion in any way. That whirring sound is the Founding Fathers spinning in their graves!
Additionally it was something NEVER IN THE constitution itself.. It was just in a private letter wrote by frankin (or was it jefferson) to a NEWS PAPER writer, about what he felt should have been in it, but didn’t make it in..
The moment the principal said the decorations violated The Constitution and added the well-worn phrase, “separation of church and state” he was on shakey ground. It is found nowhere in The Constitution attached to “Congress shall make no law establishing a religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof” or in any other reference in the document. Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter in 1802 to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut where he wanted assure them that the Amendment did what it said, the government shall not establish any sort of state religion and all people had no fear of being condemned for their beliefs. The key word is “Congress”, no other governing body, and its limited power, the dissenting judges made note of that. Now it has become the catch-phrase to scare people off while promoting the idea of secular humanism and actually making it the state religion!
Exactly, Joe. The purpose of Jefferson’s letter to the Baptists was to assure them that the government wouldn’t interfere with their religion, not the other way around.
The information that you posted is well known by all those who would wipe out and forbid all expressions and vestiges of the Christian religion. Atheists have a strong hatred for anything or anybody who professes to be a Christian and they definitely don’t want the symbols of the Christian religion publically displayed. Merry Christmas, NOT HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
And that is why trump had such a standing ovation when he visited that town yesterday (forget where).. CAUSE HE Said Merry christmas.. THAT’s what it should be not happy holidays!!!
Hello grantjr67.
You and all of those like you, fail to understand and continuously misinterpret the constitution. As you stated “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”, Congress, no other Government entity. What you need to understand is that the Federal Government was being newly formed. The States were leery of a Federal Government. The States would not ratify the Constitution if the newly formed “Federal” Government did not retain the independence of each State. In other words, the Federal Government would not impose it’s will upon the States outside of any subjects specifically written into the constitution as being under the control of the Federal Government, where the rights of the States prevail. It is left up to the States to decide their own laws concerning those subjects. The term for this is “States Rights”.
Problem is that the public schools take federal dollars.
Darby. JUST cause the schools take federal dollars, does NOT MAKE congress establishing a religion.. NOR does it mean that the schools acceptance of christianity being displayed is the feds establishing anything!
Absolutely. And the founders also just won their independence from a country (England) that was known for establishing “federal” religions, forcing everyone in the country to follow only the established religion.
So the first amendment merely forbids the federal govt. from establishing a “federal” religion that everyone has to follow, and also forbids the federal govt from interfering in the FREE PRACTICE of religion in any way.
It’s honestly so simple.
As for those nincompoops who keep quoting Thomas Jefferson’s letter to the BARBARY PIRATES about us not being a Christian nation, this was a LETTER TO MUSLIMS who did not trust Christians. And this letter was in NO way even close to being one of our founding documents. Thomas Jefferson was a Christian, who had immense respect for the infallible teachings of Jesus (his own words). His views were complex, but his belief in God and Jesus were solid.
Or perhaps you forget THOMAS JEFFERSON’S contributions to the Declaration of Independence, the main one states that our rights as Americans are “the inalienable rights endowed upon mankind by the CREATOR.”
Our rights come from GOD, a thoroughly CHRISTIAN/BIBLICAL belief that became the foundation for our Constitution and society, as stated in America’s founding documents.
Students were led in The Lord’s Prayer by their school teachers when The Ten Commandments were our values, but The Religion of Secular Humanism called itself “neutral” and became the new Constitutional State Sanctioned Religion of The US in about 1962, by Supreme Court Decree.
Now new family fragmenting decrees by Secular Humanist Democrat Governments, and Democrat Appointed Supreme Court Injustices are making our people slaves to Secular Humanist values starting with schoolchildren. Islam and Secular Humanism are destructive religious worldviews which use all venues they control including schoolteachers to corrupt the values of children, and society.
Today Religious Secular Humanism decrees adult school teachers, homosexual, transgender, abortion, pornography and promiscuous sex activists normalize unhealthy values to malleable school children from Kindergarten to University, by Democrat Legislation, and Democrat appointed Supreme Court Injustices. We also have the enemy within, that is Democrats masquerading as Republicans.
When Seculars tell you they have no religious worldview which is corrupting our society beginning with Kindergarteners, they are either lying or totally socially engineered. Their so-called “neutrality ” is dishonest.
Very well said!
Furthermore, the Federal Government was also specifically stating that the new “Union” of States would be based on the religion of “Christianity”. Only those religions based on the teachings of “Jesus Christ” would be sanctioned by the Federal Government. The promise was that the new “Federal” Congress would not hold any one “Christian” faith above another. There are many practiced religions that are based in the teachings of Christianity. There is no mention of any other religion. Not Islam, not Hinduism, not Budism, not Nudism, Atheism or any other ism. This is what so many people fail to understand. The Federal Government is based on the teachings of Christianity. The States accepted that!
It is up to the States to decide what religions they are willing to accept to be practiced in their State. It is also up to the States to decide how they wish to deal with all other subjects not under the rule of the Federal Government (See Section 8 of the Constitution).
So, in closing. If we follow the Constitution, as it is written, then the only rights given to practice any religion, other than “Christianity”, in these “United States”, is given by each individual State.
Exactly. And all you have to do is read the Declaration of Independence to see that this is true.
The Declaration states that our rights are “The inalienable rights endowed upon mankind by the CREATOR.”
By God. And since God’s law is above man’s law, the govt cannot take our rights away. God is above the govt.,and the Constitution was written to safeguard our God given rights.
Take God out of the picture, and your rights are no longer protected, as the govt. answers to no one. Your rights are whatever the govt. decides to give you, OR take away from you whenever it wants.
Now, we are the first and ONLY example of a country based ENTIRELY on God’s laws. And we became the most successful, prosperous and powerful country in the entire history of mankind, in the shortest time ever.
Now think of an example of a secular, or atheist govt. Like communism. We all know how that turned out for millions of miserable and/or murdered people.
Case closed.
As someone who usually objects to Christians making myself, my children, or wallet participate in their religion, I see no reason to object. It’s a non permanent display with other seasonal decorations around the school. If it was the only thing or paid for with tax dollars I would understand someone objecting to it. That wasn’t the case so it should stay.
Secular Humanism is also a religious worldview, and its Temples are so-called “neutral” Secular Humanist Government, Law, Education, Popular Media, and all the venues it controls. Citizens taxes pay for this morbid indoctrination of malleable schoolchildren.Thus Secular Humanism perverts the Constitution, and Society.
Where in 1957 “The Ten Commandments” was The Box Office champ, and school teachers led students in The Lord’s Prayer, today Secular Humanism legislates adult school teachers , homosexual, transgender, abortion ,and promiscuous sex activists to normalize Secular values to innocent, impressionable school children, by Democrat Legislation, and Democrat appointed Supreme Court Injustices.
Educator of Educators, Secular Humanist John Dewey wrote, “A Common Faith”, based on Terry Lectures delivered at Yale University. Here is how the book ended , ” HERE ARE ALL THE ELEMENTS FOR A RELIGIOUS FAITH THAT SHALL NOT BE CONFINED TO SECT, CLASS, OR RACE. SUCH A FAITH HAS ALWAYS BEEN IMPLICITLY THE COMMON FAITH OF MANKIND. IT REMAINS TO MAKE IT EXPLICIT AND MILITANT.” This is what so-called “neutral” Secular humanists have been doing. These are crimes against children, and humanity. These people must be voted out of office, or they will continue to socially engineer our children, and grandchildren into believing wrongs are rights.
What these people attacking Christians and Christmas don’t understand is NO WHERE in the Constitution of the United States is the phrase “separation of church and state”. This phrase was used in a letter from Thomas Jefferson and published as part of the Federalist Papers. The First Amendment says that the government cannot establish a state religion it doesn’t say we cannot or must not practice or observe religious tenets.
That has not stopped liberal judges and activist rabid atheists from pushing that it IS in the constitution, or since Jefferson wrote both the constitution AND thaose letters, it should have been in there.
@klyneal-You are totally wrong in thinking Creator refers to the Christian Deity. Had the founders meant Christ or his Dad, they would have said so, or at least used the common legalese of their day. Instead they carefully avoided doing so, choosing to use nonsectarian terms from Freemasonry and Deism. They chose NOT to be a Christian nation, but rather to be one that honors ALL religions, and used inclusive language for that reason.
Then why is it that its the Bible’s 10 commandments on many court rooms, people swear into office (and on the stand) ON the bible, and not some other book?
@klyneal You say we are nation founded on Christian principles, yet all the evidence is that we are founded on moral and religious principles derived from Locke’s philosophy, and Natural Law. That’s why they used the generic terms they chose in our founding documents. Jefferson, when he wrote the school charter for the Virginia colony, required religious instruction, but specified that this NOT be Christian instruction, but rather instruction in the principles held in common by “the Christian, Jew, Musselman, and the Great Bhudda of Tibet.”
If you believe we are founded on Christian principles, can you name a couple of those principles that are specific to Christianity, and not held by all major religions (which would indicate Natural Law was the basis rather than Christianity)?
Actually, YOU are the one that is 1000% wrong.
The Declaration of Independence uses only Biblical terminology, and only refers to the Christian GOD of the Bible. Hence the 10 commandments in our supreme court and in every major courthouse in the country.
Try reading Thomas Jefferson’s famous “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just” expose on slavery.
Better yet, try reading all the Biblical Jefferson quotes on the Jefferson memorial:
https://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/quotations-jefferson-memorial
All from the Christian BIBLE.
Seriously, you have swallowed the modern propaganda fed to all the sheeple in public schools and the media. Sad.
All the founding fathers relied heavily on Blackstone’s Commentaries as well, another staunch Christian.
And even Locke wrote in a letter to the Bishop of Worcester:
The holy scripture is to me, and always will be, the constant guide of my assent; and I shall always hearken to it, as containing infallible truth, relating to things of the highest concernment.
He found the Bible and the Trinity to be a mystery, but recognized the “infallible truth” of …. wait for it …. THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE.
You do realize that “natural law” referred to God’s law? Because that is EXACTLY what was meant by the phrase back then.
Why do you deny the Christian/Biblical foundation of this country?
Why would it offend you? You seem to be afraid to admit the truth ..
But even a cursory glance around Washington DC proves otherwise.
Even to the frieze of Moses in the House, across from the Speaker. The Biblical Lawgiver of the Bible.
THe Christian Bible was used in early schools.
And did you know that Jefferson read and studied the Bible in English, Hebrew, Latin, French and even the ancient Anglo Saxon language?
The Christian Bible was THE common knowledge among the founders.
Did you know that Ben Franklin first proposed starting every house & senate session with a CHRISTIAN prayer during the constitutional convention? Almost 250 years later, we still do this today.
Ben Franklin:
“If a sparrow cannot fall without HIS notice, can a nation rise without HIS aid?”
“We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that *”except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it.”*
The sacred writings, as was common knowledge and education at this time, was the CHRISTIAN BIBLE. Which was the *HOUSE* that our country was founded upon. The house the LORD GOD built.
You are very sadly mistaken if you think America is based on ANYTHING other than Christianity.
Someone would have to be totally ignorant of American history to fall for that, sorry to say. No offense intended.
@Klyneal – Given the historical intolerance, not only of Christianity for other religions, but even of the various sects within Christianity for each other, it is clear that an 18th century country aspiring to have true religious freedom would have great difficulty accommodating such freedom under Christian principles alone; indeed, it would probably be contrary to them (ie, “Thou Shall Have No Other God Before Me”). Samuel Adams dropped out of seminary for largely this reason and decided to study law instead. Natural Law, refers to laws evident in nature, which are consistent more with a belief in Deism than Christianity (although as I noted before, they are typically consistent with ALL true religions). You might want to refer to the writings of John Locke, who explains it fairly well, albeit in somewhat archaic language. Or just “Google” it.
I note that you have still failed to identify any specifically, and exclusively, Christian principles on which you believe we were founded. Would you care to take another stab at it? If you can’t think of one, I suggest that you consider the founding principles of the sanctity of all life, the right to defend it, the right to personal liberty, the justification for moral or “Just” War, and even the very principle of freedom of religion itself, all of which derive directly from Natural Law, and are logically valid regardless of the existence, or non-existence, of any particular Deity.
Secular Humanism is your religious worldview, which has corrupted the US and the rest of the former Christian Western Civilization, by imposing its values on everyone.
Before this school teachers started every school morning leading students in The Lord’s Prayer. The values of Christianity were the values of the majority. Without the values of Christianity there is no justice, as your religion of Constitutional State Sanctioned Secular Humanism imposes its values using all the venues it controls.These are the Temples of the religious worldview of so-called “neutral” Secular Humanism, which are indoctrinating our children, and grandchildren and society in their values. The Natural Law referred to The Ten Commandments, before the high priests of Secular Humanism changed definitions. I have The American Historical documents before me with introductions, and notes.
Secular Humanism is a corrupt religion which is corrupting children using taxation money from citizens, and you and all the secular humanist venues know this. It is not Rocket Science.
What religious intolerance? What a ridiculous statement.
Proof please.
And this: it is clear that an 18th century country aspiring to have true religious freedom would have great difficulty accommodating such freedom under Christian principles alone;
How is it clear? Proof please.
Actually, Jesus himself said that NO man can come to me except of HIS OWN FREE WILL.
Period. There ya go, all the religious freedom you need, and straight out of the Bible. No one can be forced into Christianity or belief in Jesus. No jihad in the Bible, my friend. So there goes your erroneous and uninformed opinion.
The Bible tells us that there are laws of nature—“ordinances of heaven and earth” (Jeremiah 33:25). These laws describe the way God normally accomplishes His will in the universe.
The founders universally agreed that natural law and natural laws CREATOR were one and the same. The God of nature.
And this was universal at the time.
Sorry, you’re very wrong again.
You really are a secular humanist, and very poorly versed in early American history.
Anyone that denies the truth is doing so out of some ambivalence towards God and Christianity. So you didn’t answer my question. You avoided it.
Deism was actually a movement that had died out about 80 years prior to 1776.
And deism back then was different than today. Deists believed in the Christian God and Jesus, but didn’t believe God still got involved in the affairs of men. Which definitely left our ALL our founding fathers. They were not deists, and that fad had long died out by that time anyway.
I didn’t fail to identify them, you just didn’t read them. Did you read the inscriptions on the Jefferson memorial?
Did you read his treatise on slavery? Obviously not.
Did you forget about the 10 commandments in the supreme court and courthouses all over the country?
Did you forget about Ben Franklin’s speech starting the tradition of Christian prayer before house and senate sessions? And “aided by local (Christian) clergy”?
Did you read the Declaration of Independence, and compare the terminology with the Bible? You obviously don’t study the Bible, or you would have recognized it immediately. So much for being informed.
I don’t have to google John Locke, I’ve studied him for years.
You need to google William Blackstone and educate yourself on the influence he had at the time.
And while you’re at it, google DeTocqueville, Democracy in America. You’ll love it. It proves you SO wrong.
@Klyneal-
Actually, I am not offended at all by Christianity, or any other religion, or for that matter, Atheism. I am quite religious personally. I am simply pointing out that it is erroneous to think that America was founded on exclusively Christian principles, or is a Christian nation in any sense other than that the majority of its citizens who profess to a belief in a Deity also identify themselves as Christians (however limited or occasional their actual religious practice may be). Even at the time of our founding, many of the Founding Fathers were Deists or even agnostics. Jefferson was clearly not a Christian by any current eccliastical measure. He believed Christ to be a great teacher, but not in any way divine, and called the story of his resurrection an “absurd myth.” Your assumption that all references to a Deity in the founding documents were to the Christian God, have little, if any, support. In their day, it was the norm to refer in govt documents, to “The Savior,” the Year of “our Lord and Savior,” “Jesus Christ,” “Defender of the Faith,” etc, yet the founders carefully avoided that. The terms “Providence,” “Nature and “Nature’s God,” and the “Supreme Architect of the Universe,” were specifically Deist and/or Masonic usage, not Christian, and show a conscious, concerted effort to avoid using common Christian terminology.
Jefferson’s beliefs were very private and at times complex, but he revered Jesus. Nothing was more amazing or miraculous than the teachings of Jesus to him. And again, google “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just …”
He was referring to the Christian God and obviously believed in His justice.
Actually anything Jefferson wrote on his own was clearly Christian.
As were ALL the founders.
No one was a “deist” or especially agnostic. You are definitely ambivalent towards Christianity. No one denies the truth if they aren’t, whether you admit it or not.
Not offended by Christianity? Really? LOL Liar!
Then who posted: Given the historical intolerance, not only of Christianity for other religions, but even of the various sects within Christianity for each other…
Busted. 🙂
Proof please! LMAO!
Right in the Declaration of Independence itself:
…the separate and equal station to which the *Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God* entitle them, …
“Laws of nature and of Nature’s GOD” Straight from the Bible, actually. Common terminology.
Told ya.
……appealing to the *Supreme Judge of the world* for the rectitude of our intentions, ………
Jefferson wrote that too.
“And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of *Divine Providence,* we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our *sacred Honor.*
All common Christian terminology at the time. Sorry, you are so wrong. I would give it up, my friend, you won’t find any converts to your lies here.
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/onug/detocq.html
De Tocqueville:
In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious…there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.
In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people…
Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent..
De Tocqueville cont…
I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors…; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution.
Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power.
America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.
The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law as well as the surest pledge of freedom.
The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other
Christianity is the companion of liberty in all its conflicts — the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims.
@7789361-
If you are referring to me, I am not a secular humanist, I am quite religious, and I still remember the Lord’s Prayer following the Pledge of Allegiance every morning over the school loudspeakers when I was in grade school. I also remember the various state’s “Blue Laws” that tried to “keep the Sabbath,” and forbid doing various things, including hunting and shopping, on Sundays. THOSE laws are the only ones I can think of off-hand, that are actually based specifically and exclusively on Christian principles, and they have generally been overturned. I think that’s a good thing, because it was wrong to force those non-Christian Americans, or those Christians who don’t get THAT literal about the Sabbath, to conform to someone else’s religious rules. If you are a Christian, would you want to have to obey laws that forced you to observe the actual Sabbath as the orthodox Jews do, from sundown Friday until Sunset Saturday? Just put the shoe on the other foot for a moment, and you’ll see what’s wrong with specifically Christian laws. While the various versions of the Bible may function quite well as guidelines for how to live a virtuous life, that is true regardless of whether or not you believe in the divinity of Christ. Frankly, the same thing can be said of the Buddhist’s “Eight-fold Path” and the “Wiccan Rede.” Non-believers may well cite passages from any or all those without necessarily believing in the religions that gave birth to them.
Yep Secular humanism to the core.
At least be honest about your lies. Have some courage!
LOL
More Thomas Jefferson:
“*Almighty God* hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens…are a departure from the plan of the holy *Author of our religion*…
Excerpted from A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom, drafted in 1777. First introduced in the Virginia General Assembly in 1779, after he had become Governor.
Virginia was Jefferson’s state. This was Jefferson alone. Sorry, wrong again!
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the *gift of God?* Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just,*
Do YOU know why Jefferson referred to our liberties as a GIFT of GOD?
Bet you don’t. Because you never studied the Bible. But Jefferson did. In multiple languages.
Oh, and no references to bhudda, or hindu gods or elephants or whatever.
Just Christian, Biblical references. BUSTED AGAIN.
Oldshooter,Christianity is a worldview. About the year 307 Constantine became the Roman Emperor,and he learned Christianity on his mother’s knee. Before he became Emperor Christians were marginalized, enslaved, and murdered in The Colosseum by government decree. Before this Church referred to persecuted Christians, not edifices.
Emperor Constantine called The Council Of Nicaea in 325, because of heresy threatening the unity of the Christian faith. Note the bishops must be held accountable, by The Defenders Of The Faith, or the Bishops and Pastors go in any direction they desire. Today children are perverted by adult Secular Humanist school teachers,homosexual, transgender, abortion,and promiscuous sex activists by Government Legislation, and Supreme Court Decree. Are you saying Buddhists would not do the same? Buddhist politicians, and their followers are not making a sound.
The tenets of Christianity are far better than pagan worldviews. Today Secular Humanism imposes its values. Multiculturalism is a free for all. One of the definitions of Nicolaitan is,”not a sect, but professing Christians who ,Balaam like, introduce a false freedom,i.e.licentiousness.” Indoctrination by imposed Secular Humanism have made real Christianity rare. Secular Christian is an oxymoron ,but few are unaware of this, but you are waking some up.
@Klyneal-What religious intolerance, you ask? WOW, where to begin. You know about the Crusades of course, and the millennia-long persecution of Jews by Christians (remember “The Merchant of Venice”), the Pilgrims fled England to be allowed to pursue their own Christian sect, and of course the Irish had a centuries-long war between Catholic and Anglican Christians that may not be over yet! The Conquistadors destroyed and persecuted (not to mention enslaved) the local Native-Americans wherever they landed to “Conquer for God and the Queen,” and Missouri Synod Lutherans are still being taught to tell their Jewish neighbors they are going to Hell unless they convert. In our country, Catholics were routinely persecuted and ostracized into the 20th century. A Wiccan Gold Star mother had to file a lawsuit a few years ago to get the VA to give her deceased son a Wiccan headstone. Mainstream Christians have only very recently (and still only SOME of them) been willing to accept other religions as equally worthy of respect, let alone true. They certainly didn’t do so in the 18th century, when Irish Anglicans were still righteously persecuting and killing Irish Catholics, and English Quakers were being jailed for preaching their beliefs on street corners.
While you might be fine with the Lord’s Prayer being said before a HS football game today, how would you feel if a Wiccan kid wanted to invoke his Goddess’s help before the game? Still think Christians are tolerant?
The Crusades!!! Wow, total ignorance. Sorry, but the Crusades were started by Muslim agressions against Christian outposts. Wrong again! If anything, the crusades are an example of muslim intolerance and agression.
Try again. Your very poor knowledge of history is showing my friend.
Christians came to America from all over the world for religious freedom, not just England.
And they were the victims escaping persecution, not the other way around.
Try again! LOL ! You are funny.
I’m Irish, dude. My mother was the first born here, and much of my family is still in Ireland.
The war in Ireland was not a religious war. Don’t even try it, I guarantee you don’t know more of Ireland’s history than I do.
You are sadly mistaken. The British did use any ruse to divide and conquer, and it was commmon to try and wipe out the national identity of an indigenous people. The British succeeded in this endeavor in other countries, but never completely in Ireland.
I’m not getting into a history lesson, because your ignorance of any true history would take years to cure.
But you are so very wrong again. So far off the mark.
The conquistadors have nothing to do with the founding of this country, and their purpose was not religious either. They weren’t even British, they were Spaniards that annilated indigenous populations in SOUTH AMERICA.
What is WRONG with you?
Not sure why you would use this as an example.
The early British settlers did not try to wipe out the Indians, but they did try to convert them to Christianity. They were largely unsuccessful, but you do know the story of John Rolf and Pocahontas, who did become a Christian?
Unreal, what on earth were you taught in school? WOW.
None of my family were persecuted when they came here. All Irish Roman Catholic. My parents even went to Catholic grade school. THere was a Catholic and a public grade school in my town back when I was growing up. We didn’t care which school our friends went to. Neighborhoods were mixed, Irish, Methodist, Jewish, whatever. Nobody cared, dude! We grew up together.
What the hell planet did you grow up on?
What century did you grow up in?
Sorry, dude but you live in such a fantasy world!
Give it up. Nobody is going to believe your fantasies.
Ya know what, oldshooter? The only intolerance around here is YOURS.
Your ambivalence is showing again! LMAO!
As is your intolerant, hateful, resentful rhetoric. Totally biased against Christianity.
It’s actually EXACTLY YOUR attitude and prejudiced intolerance that Christians came to this country to ESCAPE from.
BUSTED!
@7789361- I’m not sure what you meant about Buddhists “doing the same” and Buddhist politicians “not making a sound.”
Buddhists don’t typically try to convert anyone to their religion or worldview, so they would be unlikely to take the kind of actions taken by Christians, who often DO feel justified in trying to make others see things their way. If individual Buddhists disagreed with some Secular Humanist inspired laws, they would typically vote against them, and just live with them if the society kept them anyway. Buddhists don’t have any religious issues with things like transgender bathrooms anyway, so as a group, they’d be unlikely to care one way or the other, and therefore, wouldn’t be expected to “make a sound” (if I am interpreting your statements correctly).
And while YOU may think that Christian beliefs are somehow better than Pagan ones, my Pagan friends would disagree with you entirely, and, since there doesn’t seem to be any objective way to measure this, would do so with equally good justifications.
What did you think of De Tocqueville’s brilliant assessment of the United States?
Just curious…. 🙂
(@7789361 has you pegged, btw)
@klyneal-We weren’t talking about the USA, we were talking about Christians having a long history of religious intolerance. That is why I mentioned the Conquistadors, who were a prime example. Since the international history of Christian intolerance, at least since the days of Torquemada and the Inquisition, is generally widely known by most people today, I have to wonder what YOU were taught (or not taught) in school. Native inhabitants of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California were widely killed, and survivors were enslaved by Christian “Friars” who accompanied the Conquistadors. The Conquistadors were Christians who justified their behavior by the concept that they were “Christianizing” the savage heathens in the new world. Hardly a religiously tolerant worldview. You indicated that you thought my statements about Christians having a long history of intolerance for other religions, or even for different sects within their own religion, were ridiculous, and seemed to be unaware of Christian history, so I was just pointing out various instances of Christian religious intolerance, ranging from about the seventh century to the present, to support my earlier statements. The First Amendment tour Constitution stands as evidence that the Founding Fathers were also well aware of Christianity’s history of intolerance of other viewpoints.
The founding fathers were aware the the truth of Jesus Christ, were stolid Christians all the way, and were well aware that Christianity and the teachings of Christ were and are the most loving, compassionate and TOLERANT worldview EVER to exist in mankind’s history.
It’s why they deliberately based the Revolution and the foundation of America entirely upon Biblical Christian teachings.
America was to be “The shining city on the hill” (straight out of the Bible)
LIke I said, you will not be convincing anyone with even a modest grasp of history of your lies.
Your ignorance is ASTOUNDING.
Sorry, I suggest you give it up, take your secular humanist lies, and troll elsewhere.
@Klyneal – I thought De Toqueville nailed it almost perfectly at the time, and I just wish we could have lived up to his estimation. Maybe we can still save it, especially if Trump can live up to his image.
As for 7789361, he doesn’t have me pegged at all. I suspect he thinks I’m an Atheist.
This has all been great fun, but I have to shut down for the day now.
Bye for now, Y’All!
Actually, we WERE that country. We more than lived up to DeTocqueville’s estimation. We CREATED it, and WERE it.
The problem is that, since about the 50’s, we have been subjected to secular humanists such as yourself, and have fallen from grace.
Hopefully we can make it BACK there. It’s not a matter of getting there, so much as getting BACK to our roots.
🙂 And yes, with Trump, we stand a chance. Thank God for that!
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams
Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary said, “[T]he Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence.”
Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence said. “[T]he only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind.”
Klyneal, you seem to have given this a lot of thought and was wondering if you could share some of your views on any limits to the 1st amendment.
In the case of this poster I’m sure we agree but probably disagreed on the story of the Christian music on the school bus. Does the driver have a right to play religious music to minors if parents object?
Is there a limit on religious displays funded with public money? Is there any limit on the amount of money spent?
Is there any limit on “morality” laws, say something banning divorce, adultery or something from the ten commandments or businesses being closed Sundays. We both would agree that laws protecting minors and unborn babies are necessary.
I know our views are different but I would like hear yours.
Christian music on the bus? I missed that story. I would have to read it.
And I’m not sure what you mean about religious displays funded with public money. Towns and municipalities can fund any religious display they please, and the federal government has no jurisdiction at all. That is more of a local decision. As for a limit, that would be a local financial decision as well.
Not sure what you mean by “morality laws” either. Most of our laws are based on what is “right” and “wrong.” Morals.
If you want to discern a societies morals, just study their laws. This is true of any society, now or in the past.
The 10 commandments also tells us to not steal or murder. And not to lie (illegal in business dealings, in court, etc.) … you would be surprised just how many of our laws come from the Bible, even our employment and business laws. Most of them.
A legal system is pretty much a moral system. And abortion laws are a prime example of moral laws.
I believe Bush made the right decision in banning federal funding of embryonic stem cell research as well. And came out against human cloning (America’s opinions on that helped ban human cloning in Europe).
Moses actually recorded divorce laws in the Bible, because man’s heart had become hardened. It wasn’t the original plan, but there were divorce laws.
Where I live, EVERYTHING is closed on Sunday. It’s just the culture of this area of western Pennsylvania.
I don’t know if you would say I’ve given this a lot of thought, or just that I’ve studied history for decades. We are doomed to repeat past mistakes if we don’t know the true history of our country and world history. The answers are all there.
Did you know that America has been called the “greatest experiment in history” ?
I’d say it was a pretty successful experiment! lol
You’re right, it’s been a very successful experiment. Thanks for the reply.
@Klyneal-I suppose we just disagree on a lot of things, but I’m curious why you think I am either intolerant of Christianity, or any other religion, or why you think I am a Human Secularist. All I have done so far is disagree with you about the principles our country was founded on. Just because I consider you in error on that topic, you say I am a liar, a troll, etc. What have I said that would cause you to think me intolerant? Simply because I contend that the country was founded on the principles of Natural Law rather than specifically Christian principles? Really?! If anything that belief would make me MORE, not less, tolerant of various religions. Whereas you seem to be ruling out all religions except yours, and can’t even accept historically accurate criticisms of it. If you know Irish history, you know Catholics were persecuted from the time they lost at Boyne on. When I was in Armagh, the first and most important thing anyone you met wanted to know was whether you were a “Prod” or a”Papist,” a fundamentally religious question, even though both were Christian. Whichever you claimed determined who you could hang with, where you could safely stay, or eat, or drink, etc.
Also, you do realize that De Tocqueville was describing an actual AMERICA that existed from it’s conception?
De Tocqueville was not describing America as “it could be” as you tried to pull off. He was describing America as she actually WAS. Nice try, but even you have to see how that is not even close to true. The truth is, that we have to GET BACK TO where we were, and what made us the most successful nation on earth, ever.
THAT WAS AMERICA. We were known as the most Christian nation on earth, and for good reason. We were also called the “greatest experiment in human history” exactly FOR being the first nation to found our government entirely on Christian principles.
We have fallen away from our roots.
I also see that you have never compared a nation founded on Christian principles to one that is not. You should.
Fisher Ames author of the final wording for the First Amendment wrote, “[Why] should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind.”
John Jay, Original Chief-Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court , “The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts.”
James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution; U. S. Supreme Court Justice, “Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other.”
Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary stated, “The moral principles and precepts contained in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. . . All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”
George Washington, General of the Revolutionary Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, First President of the United States of America, Father of our nation, ” Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society.”
Benjamin Franklin, Signer of the Declaration of Independence “[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.”
“Whereas true religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness . . . it is hereby earnestly recommended to the several States to take the most effectual measures for the encouragement thereof.” Continental Congress, 1778
Note that the above quotes are but a small sample of hundreds of quotes the Founding Fathers made in regards to the importance of a religious and moral people in a successful Republican Democracy.
In our young nation, the CHRISTIAN Bible was used as a text book for the purpose of teaching children moral principles to live by, to read, and about history. No other religious book was ever used to develop our country or in it’s schools.
As time went on, the Bible was gradually replaced by other text books such as Noah Webster’s Primer. Webster’s Primer taught children to spell but was also filled with moral Bible verses. In the front of his Primer was his picture with the inscription,
“Who taught millions to read but not one to sin.”
(hint: This was NOT a reference to bhudda.)
This is the exact opposite of the school curriculum today. The courts in this country have revised the First Amendment, thus erecting a wall of atheism around every public school in America, where in God is not allowed to be mentioned. This is not the same wall that Thomas Jefferson envisioned.
By people like you, my friend, who love to revise history and hide the truth.
Do no lie to me about my country. I’m far too familiar with the truth of it’s founding to even begin to entertain your fantasies.
sorry. It’s all they are. wishful thinking.
and yes, everything you say reeks of ambivalence towards Christianity. You definitely don’t want to give Christianity any credit, and you are trying to take away any credibility by pretending it’s just like any other religion.
It is not. It’s a world view built on belief in God and Jesus. And no other world view has ever spawned the freest, most successful and powerful nation in all of human history.
So start being honest and truthful, and GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE.
No one ever asked me, the “yank,” what religion I was. They had lots of questions about “the States” and everyone had family in America. But religion was never an issue. I’m not saying Catholics weren’t prosecuted, but it wasn’t a “religious” war.
I’m sure you know that. It was much more complicated.
My family originated in Galway, and eventually moved to 4 mile house, Ross common. Sheep stealers, lol.
I’m not mistaken at all. Christianity is not intolerant. The Crusades were most definitely due to decades of muslim aggression, and the conquistadors were interested in conquest. I could never see how anyone interested in “converting” the indigenous population would just wipe them out, which they were definitely known for.
The British colonists genuinely attempted to convert the Indians, the conquistadors just murdered and wiped out whole peoples. But again, it wasn’t a religious war.
And there is no doubt whatsoever that America was founded on Christian Biblical principals.
That would be like saying the sky is not blue. Totally absurd. Why do you even try? What you are doing is called “revisionist history.” It’s a lie, which is why I called you a liar and a troll.
You don’t even recognize the Biblical language the founders used continually. WHich tells me you are not familiar with the Bible.
Nor did you address ANY of the points I brought up. Starting all govt. sessions with a Christian prayer attended by Christian clergy. The 10 commandments in the supreme court and across courts in the country. The frieze of the Biblical Lawgiver, Moses in the house of reps, Ben Franklin’s speech to the constitutional convention which is straight out of the Christian Bible. And every single signer of the Declaration knew exactly what he was talking about, because they were all well versed in the Christian Bible.
Just read the Declaration that Jefferson wrote, and his treatise on slavery. No doubt all he continually does is refer to the Christian God in the vernacular of the time. He even mentions NATURE’S GOD in the Declaration (told ya!).
If you were familiar with Blackstone, as ALL the founders were at the time, you’d see the same Christian language. Blackstone was a lifelong Christian.
If you studied British history, you’d see the forshadowing of American History. The same concepts. Actually you could go back to Alfred the Great, the Saxon that first established Great Britian, and see that HE was a Christian that founded his new country on the Old Testament, with some New Testament principals thrown in. Even England had Christian beginnings. You can follow that thread all the way back to Israel. IF YOU STUDY HISTORY LONG ENOUGH, but you seem to only grasp bits and pieces, without putting the whole puzzle together.