Put ID in U.S. id [Archive] - The Forum at GOPUSA

pcyrdad

09-23-2003, 06:04 PM

It's just like when they used to have the random checkpoints up along I-19... If they had a suspicious vehicle come through, they'd pull it over, then let everything else through. I've watched them wave through cars with Mexican plates without hesitation. Now, the checkpoints aren't even used anymore. Once they're across, there's very little to stop them.

Before I go, I need to dispel a stereotype about the fat, lazy Border Patrol agents, since I know a few and am related (by marriage) to one. Most of them are neither fat nor lazy, but they all feel frustrated, because they know they could and should be doing more. The problem is the lethargy emanating from the upper echelons of the agency. Now, that may be the result of federal policy, but the average BP agent is a good guy caught in a no-win situation. There are a few, though, who are also employed by smugglers, to either look the other way, or to actively help.

And, Terri, the last breakdown I saw of home countries of illegals that have been caught, there were some European countries on the list.

Jim Hayden

09-23-2003, 10:30 PM

This is one area where I have been expressing concerns since TWA 800 was shot down during the Clinton-Gore Administration. *There is absolutely no reason for our boarders being wide open to anyone who wishes to enter. *It is really not that hard to close them if a person like myself with the proper training and experience were in charge. *It takes a person with combat training and experience to establish a well-defined defensive parameter and to maintain it. *

If I have said it once I have said it a thousand times that both the shooting down of TWA Flight 800 and the 9-11 could have been prevented with the right person sitting in the White House. *The only real responsibility the President has is our National Defense. *That is it under the Constitution *

We as a Party can and yes we must do a lot better than Bush. *He has lied to all of us repeatedly starting with Osama being responsible for the 9-11 attack and Saddam having weapons of mass destruction. *Bush’s economic plan if he really ever had one will never work simply because you cannot cut taxes while you increase government spending.

Right now if a terrorist wanted to they could float a nuclear device right up into the center of New York Harbor and wipe out most of our eastern seaboard. *It would not be that difficult to do because Bush fails to understand just how easy it would be to stop any such attack. *Bush does not know how to deploy the troops under him to protect our borders and he has very little understanding of just how well our military is trained. *A very good example of this is his failure to deploy the Military Police along with the fighting forced to maintain control of the Iraqi people after we destroyed the political system in Iraq. *Any person with any real combat training would have instinctively known to do that. *That is like this Democrat General who was responsible for the mess in Europe. *Because of his lack of proper training and experience several thousand of our people and our allies were killed needlessly. *Oh well; what do you expect from an Air Force General? *Just because a person has a few stars on his or her collar does not necessarily mean they actually know how to fight a war. *Most have never been in combat and they have no real idea how to execute a battle let alone how to win a war. *

Because of Bush Osama is still out there causing us trouble, Saddam is still causing us trouble, neither Afghanistan nor Iraq are any closer to having a democratic government and our borders still stand wide open for anyone to enter while we live in perpetual fear of another 9-11 attack.

Since I do have the proper combat training and experience I do know how to deploy our troops to best protect us against any future attacks. *Because I have the business training and experience I know how to best cut our taxes while reducing government spending which in turn will stimulate the economy. *Because I have the intestinal fortitude to get the job done right the first time around I am able to lead the Republican Party back to its constitutional roots. *If the Dixiecrats don’t like it then we will send them packing back to the Democratic Party from which they came.

Jim Hayden in 2004
http://www.geocities.com/jim_hayden2004/
jim_hayden1@lycos.co m

jonessa2

09-24-2003, 01:12 AM

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/yikes.gif * * * * http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/ref1.gif *where in the h@ll did you come from and who http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/dead.gif and made you *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tinfoil.gif

Our Prezident has led the US out of the dark ages and into the 21st century where we can no longer http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/ostrich.gif * To introduce ideology and legislation to the babyboomers was and is http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/no.gif easy feat. *Sure, interlopers can come along and take advantage *of the path already laid, but it is only the current president that can see it through. *We can be an inflexible lot and at the same time totally gullable. *
* * * * We need a national ID card. *Something that foreigners cannot gain access to as frivolously as what the driver's license has become. *Something that needs various hoops to jump through to get.

anyway, when I would visit my friend in hamilton ontario, I had to show my driver's license going into canada at detroit and entering the US. *I had been told that the license plates were being scanned, and that technology that could see into your vehicles was beibg used as well. *Now that was just at Detoit and Niagra Falls. *But I think those borders are very nude. *The bridge at Detroit is a very uimpressive site both at nite and during the day.

I don't know what things are like at the mexican borders. *The few photos I've seen makes me think that it is a very confusing mass of autos and humanity.

Jim Hayden

09-24-2003, 04:03 PM

jonessa2 – I have come from the Old GOP where a man’s word was his bond and the liars where all Democrats. We were the Party that stood for honesty and justice for every person regardless of color or nationality. We were the Party that preached that every person is presumed innocent until they are proven guilty in a court of law.

However that has all changed. We are incarcerating people without a trial and without any formal charges being brought against them simply because they happen to be of the wrong nationality. We are denying people their rights to a fair trial based solely upon their origin of birth. We have illegally invaded 2 countries based solely upon the lies told us by Mr. Bush and company. Mr. Bush claimed Osama was responsible for the 9-11 attack yet when he was pressured for the evidence to back up his words he invaded Afghanistan instead. If he had the evidence then why didn’t he abide by International Law and prove it in the International Court where he could have gotten an arrest warrant for Osama? Then if Afghanistan still refused to turn over Osama we could have gone in and legally gotten him. As it is we have replaced the old Government with the old ruling monarch and his warlords while Osama is still alive and still causing trouble. Then before Afghanistan is even secure Mr. Bush was telling us how we have to invade Iraq because Saddam has weapons of mass destruction. Well where are all of those weapons of mass destruction Mr. Bush was so adamant about? Hey people wake up. Mr. Bush lied about every thing. He lied to us and he has been lying to the world. Mr. Bush has taken us from being the protector of the innocent and the helpless to being the bully on the block as he has invaded one country after another without any real justification or provocation. I mean after all of the times Mr. Bush has been caught in a out right lie I am surprised anyone still believes a word that man says. Further more anyone who still wishes to believe Mr. Bush then prove it. Where are all of those weapons of mass destruction Mr. Bush said Saddam had? Then prove that Osama was responsible for what happened on 9-11. Go ahead and show us the evidence. You can’t because there is none other than Mr. Bush’s word. The Man is a liar and anyone who believes a liar after they have been caught lying as many times as Mr. Bush has is only deceiving themselves.

As far as a national ID Card goes there is the problem of forgeries being made in Mexico, Canada and elsewhere where we do not have any jurisdiction. No matter what we do, within a few months after issuing our first National IDs there will be hundreds of thousands of forgeries floating around for anyone to buy. Heck right now today we are unable to stop forgers from forging our money.

Jim Hayden in 2004
http://www.geocities.com/jim_hayden2004/
jim_hayden1@lycos.co m

lpara

09-24-2003, 10:37 PM

Mr. Hayden, with all due respect~~maybe you can prove all the above allegations BEFORE your skewed rhetoric turns you into a laughingstock.

azwhitewolf

09-24-2003, 11:49 PM

Laughingstock, indeed. *
Quote[/b] ]However that has all changed. *We are incarcerating people without a trial and without any formal charges being brought against them simply because they happen to be of the wrong nationality. *
Yep. *The Bush Administration is purposefully putting random people in jail for kicks and giggles. *
Quote[/b] ] We are denying people their rights to a fair trial based solely upon their origin of birth.
If you're not a legal resident of the US, you don't have the rights a citizen has - the right to a trial. *IMHO, you deserve to be deported immediately without question. *That goes for your student visas too. *
Quote[/b] ]If he had the evidence then why didn’t he abide by International Law and prove it in the International Court where he could have gotten an arrest warrant for Osama?
Hey Rip Van Winkle - wake up. *What part of International or UN ANYTHING was willing to help us out after losing 3000 people to a terrorist attack? * America shouldn't surrender their efforts based soley on the fact that other countries didn't care enough to help out. *Look at France and Germany even TODAY. *And that was before any facts came out whatsoever. *
Quote[/b] ]Mr. Bush has taken us from being the protector of the innocent and the helpless to being the bully on the block as he has invaded one country after another without any real justification or provocation.
Without any real justification? *Didn't you see bodies falling out of a burning building? *Didn't you see people throwing up from the dust and debris? *

We HAVE proven that Saddam has aided, trained and funded terrorism - complete with a hollowed out airplane! *Hell, even Clinton knew that, and he was the dumbest rock in the quarry. * Iraq was a prime target, ESPECIALLY in light of the last 11 years of worthless (!!) broken UN Resolutions that the UN never bothered to enforce. *Why do you think they were denying entrance to Saddam's Palaces?

Because they didn't have rubber booties to put over their shoes? *

I'm not admitting that it was even a mistake. Common sense pointed to the obvious. 67% of Iraqi citizens believe that their country is better without Saddam, and 65% believe they have a better future. That's the liberal CNN's latest poll. Tonight. Let's not forget the children they put in prison for not hating America.

Let's face it. It was a good move REGARDLESS because at some point in history (and not too far either I'd think), we were going to end up fighting those people anyway.
Quote[/b] ]Further more anyone who still wishes to believe Mr. Bush then prove it. *Where are all of those weapons of mass destruction Mr. Bush said Saddam had?
Okay, do the math on this one, Jim. *

You train terrorists. *You fund them. *They attack a powerful nation, and all eyes are on you. *Aren't you going to dismantle the WMD's and get rid of them BEFORE or AFTER the world puts you under the microscope? Before the UN finally breaks a filibuster in votes and decides to force their way into you? *Saddam had 11 years to ditch that stuff ANYWHERE, and YOU are all pissy that we haven't found it in mere months, and less than 2 years later.

Hey, if I buried a 55-gallon drum in the small town of Winslow *Arizona, could you find it? Assuming you would give me a month's head-start on moving it somewhere else if I felt like it?
Quote[/b] ]As far as a national ID Card goes there is the problem of forgeries being made in Mexico, Canada and elsewhere where we do not have any jurisdiction.
Yes, but the difference is that when you're found out, you're arrested. * You can make US citizens carry 100 forms of ID, and some illegal is still going to get them. *The key in fighting the problem on the borders is actually PUNISHING (and not legitimizing) illegal aliens - citizens who we have NO information on are the real threat.

I hope we can agree at least that Bush has failed on the borders issue, IMO. There's no point screening every airport only to leave an open border. That's stupid.

Der Alte

09-25-2003, 08:48 AM

Quote[/b] ]I have come from the Old GOP Maybe?, but you sound more like a new Liberal Troll.

As far as the original subject - National ID Cards, I'm 100% in favor of them. They can, with modern technology, make them almost impossible to counterfeit. As far as taking some of your freedoms away - don't believe it. I have carried a Government ID card, thanks to the US Army and Air Force for the past 52 years and it has never impeded any activity. Either we use a good national ID card and just call it quits on trying to hold on to our values - or our country.

pRIMrose

09-26-2003, 06:38 AM

Quote[/b] ] Either we use a good national ID card and just call it quits on trying to hold on to our values - or our country.

Couldn't agree more. http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif It would be very difficult to duplicate a card that had the technology to embed your DNA or any number of things that would be identifiable to only you. All it takes is a concentrated effort to implement the technology.

As for Bush lying to the American people. This is ludicrous. If he was lying, then so was everyone in the Clinton administration along with Clinton himself, who all agreed en masse that Saddam Hussein had WMD and was a definite threat to world stability. They also knew that OBL was guilty of terrorism all over the globe. It seems that Bush has been the only one to believe the documented facts and try and do something about it. Even the UN said that Iraq had WMD and had not complied with the UN resolutions, and in fact as we now know, had violated UN sanctions.

If there had been a Republican in office instead of Clinton, there might never have been a 9/11 or any number of other terrorist attacks throughout the world. A Republican president would never have turned down a chance to apprehend OBL.

As for the National ID ~ it would only be an improvement on all the other ID cards we already have. If you have a DL, use the internet, have a social security card, a military card, or any number of other cards that require personal information on a data base, you are already vulnerable to identity theft. If a National ID will help protect us from the illegal invasion we experience through our borders, I say go for it.

Jim Hayden

09-26-2003, 10:11 PM

We faced this same enemy in Vietnam that we are facing today. Only back then the terrorists were confined to Southeast Asia. Now the Communist Chinese have had time to train and equipped possibly millions of terrorist worldwide. I mean look at the weapons the terrorists are using. AK-47s, RPGs, high explosive booby traps, these are the exact same weapons the terrorists used against us and the Vietnamese people back during the Vietnam War.

If our own Congress had not stopped supporting the South we would not be facing the terrorist’s threat we have today. We had our chance to stop them back 30 something years ago. We as a nation blew it and now we need a person in the White House, who has stood on the battlefield, defeated the terrorists on their own soil and who knows how to do it again.

That calls for a person who knows how to use his air and artillery support along with how to set up a sweep of the area. That kind of business calls for a person who knows how to set up an ambush for the maximum number of enemy kills. We had Osama and because Bush has absolutely no combat training or experience he let Osama go free. We had Saddam and because of Bush’s lack of combat training and skills he let Saddam go free. Just as I predicted he would before we invaded Iraq. Remember?

The President is the Commanding Officer of our Armed Forces. It is the President’s sole responsibility after he receives a Declaration of War from the Congress to engage our enemies and to defeat them. Until the President receives a Declaration of War from the Congress he can only maintain our defensive parameter and nothing else. Which Clinton and now baby Bush have failed to do. Only the Congress is authorized to determine who our enemies are and only the Congress has the authority to declare war. Not the President. The President’s sole responsibility is to insure our borders are secure and that our nation is protected against an attack. That is it PERIOD. Once we are attacked it is the President’s responsibility to insure our defenses will hold until the Congress is able to Declare War. Then once the Congress Declares War it is the Presidents job to lead our military to total victory. Article II Section 2 of the United States Constitution.

Therefore if securing our borders is the President’s primary responsibility and he already has at his disposal all of the tools he needs to get the job done then why in heaven’s sake do we need a National ID when all we actually need is a President who knows how to do his job?

Jim Hayden in 2004
http://www.geocities.com/jim_hayden2004/
jim_hayden1@lycos.co m

pRIMrose

09-27-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote[/b] ]why in heaven’s sake do we need a National ID when all we actually need is a President who knows how to do his job?

Jim, alas, this is painfully simplistic. Everyone knows that Congress, especially the Senate, obstruct everything that this President has tried to do. I'm not saying he has tried to close the borders, and for this I am not a happy camper. But I do understand that as soon as he makes any radical move the creeps like the ACLU and the Dem obstructionists will be out in full force. They would crucify him if he attempted to close our borders. There needs to be a loud hue and cry from the people of this country. A movement that even the liberal Democrats can't ignore. So far there hasn't been. Just sporadic attempts in states that are feeling and reeling from the unwanted impact of illegal invasion.

Somewhere along the line this country signed on to the global plantation and now we are having to live and deal with the ramifications. We want cheap trinkets and cheap labor but on the other hand we want high wages, big homes and high living standards. We are not the industrial super power we once were. Our jobs and manufacturing are leaving in the droves.

IMO, this nation will never again be totally autonomous. We will forever be competing for or defending our rank as the number one super power. Always in the gunsights of those who would love to see us fail. The Chinese are patient people and are building a mamouth economy and military. And we have given them the tools to outdo us.

The President is only one man. Due to extraordinary lack of cooperation, he hasn't even been able to get his judicial nominees appointed. The Democrats are not going to help him in any way, shape, fashion or form. Right now they are bickering about the $20B that is going to help rebuild Iraq.

This President inherited a sinking economy, an ever growing threat of terrorism, and mass illegal immigration which the Clinton administration managed to have amnestied and rushed through the INS in time for the 1996 election.

Perhaps we have reached the tipping point already. You may be able to handle a military battle, but IMO, you would be hard pressed to get any more cooperation from the Congress or the bleeding hearts than does President Bush. Dare I say, with your agenda, you wouldn't even get nominated. In case you haven't noticed, this country is rapidly leaning left. We are forced to hold our nose and vote for the lesser of two evils in order to get even a portion of what we want. We can thank our "diverse" stars for this phenomena.

If you are not prepared to pander to the minorities, the pro abortionists, the blacks, the women, the flag burners, the athiests, and any number of other "agenda" driven special interests, you won't even get a ticket to watch, much less run.

I'm not really sure anymore if we can ever fix what has happened to us in the last 40 years. But I do know that no President, on either side of the spectrum, has been able to stop the downward slide. Especially if they have a "D" behind their name. So, electability is the name of the game. It's going on in California as we speak.

So, now that the horse is out of the barn, we'll have to make sure he gets branded so we'll know if he belongs in our pasture or in the pasture to the south of us.

Jim Hayden

09-27-2003, 08:50 PM

PRIMrose – You maybe right a person like myself who has the backbone and the intestinal fortitude to stand tall and stand firm again injustice may not have a snowball’s chance. That is all up to you and the other members of the Republican Party.

You also have a very negative way of looking at things since people are willing to pay $3.00 or more for a loaf of bread that cost them $.85 8 years ago and over $20,000.00 for a car when they only spent about $5,000.00 for the same model car just a few short years ago. Then there is the $18.75 monthly utility bill that they are now paying well over $300.00 a month for. A gallon of gas that cost $.21 30 years ago cost almost $2.00 a gallon in some places today. Over the past 20 or so years inflation as risen over 300% while wages and salaries have not been keeping up with the rate of inflation. That is why a lot of families need 2 incomes and still they are not able to pay all of their bills every month or save any money. Last year alone the rate of inflation was about 38% over the previous year once the additional costs of food, gas, electric and fuel oil were added into the equation while the average wage rose 2.8%. The elderly and our Veterans only received a lousy 1.4% Cost of Living Increase last year.

“Everyone knows that Congress, especially the Senate, obstruct everything that this President has tried to do. “ Could that be because this President like his father before him is a wishy washy wimp who is easily pushed around. Most people only respect a person with a little backbone. While it is true that he has not hesitated to commit other brave men and women to fight his battles he himself would rather run and hide like he did on 9-11. I mean the man ran away and hid for 3 weeks after 9-11 as if his own life was in some sort of danger. In other words people will only respect a person who has earned it. The Congress gave Bush more than enough time to gain their respect and what did he do? He told them that he was unable to do his job and that he needed a Department of Homeland Security to do his job for him. Then he pushed the Congress to cut our taxes while increasing the Government’s spending at the same time. Then Bush failed to capture Osama after promising he would and again Bush failed in his promise to get Saddam. Bush ignored the UN when he ordered the illegal invasion of Iraq and that right there turned a lot of people against him. We the People have handed Bush a Republican controlled Congress (both Houses) and If Bush is unable to get anything done it is because Bush himself has failed to gain even his fellow Republican’s respect.

So far I have said that we do not need a Department of Homeland Security that what we really needed was a President who knows how to do his job and everybody told me how wrong I was. I proclaimed that Bush did not have what it takes to capture Osama and that he would not be able to get Saddam either and I was told that I was crazy. I said that Saddam did not have any weapons of mass destruction and I was told to go away. Well everything I have said is true. Like it or not I am the best candidate for the job only I need your support. The only reason Bush is where he is today is because the majority of people did not vote for Bush but rather against Gore and yes there is a very BIG difference. That means if we want to maintain control of the Congress and the White House we had better find someone to replace Bush as soon as possible. If we fail to do so we will have to suffer another 8 years under another Democrat like Clinton and we will loose control of both houses of the Congress. I was right on about Osama, Saddam and the need for a Department of Homeland Security. Do you really want to risk taking a chance I might be wrong about Bush in the next election?

Jim Hayden in 2004
http://www.geocities.com/jim_hayden2004/
jim_hayden1@lycos.co m

azwhitewolf

09-28-2003, 01:26 AM

Quote[/b] ] Quote[/b] ] Jim: Either we use a good national ID card and just call it quits on trying to hold on to our values - or our country.

Primrose:
Couldn't agree more
Well, what's the point of a National ID card?

If ONE governor of ONE state can ruin the entire Drivers License process like Davis did, what makes you think another ALCU judge (or heck, Bustamante) wouldn't do the same "equality for illegals" with a National ID card? I fail to see the "additional security" an ID card would give. Social Security and a Drivers license, when used properly, worked for over 50 years. It was the idiots in California that raped the dignity from having those cards.
Quote[/b] ]The elderly and our Veterans only received a lousy 1.4% Cost of Living Increase last year.
Crap. Even illegal immigrants got a better deal than that!
Quote[/b] ] While it is true that he has not hesitated to commit other brave men and women to fight his battles he himself would rather run and hide like he did on 9-11. I mean the man ran away and hid for 3 weeks after 9-11 as if his own life was in some sort of danger. In other words people will only respect a person who has earned it.
You know, you had me at the backbone thing... I agree GW is pushed around, which is his own fault. He needs to listen to Michael Savage for a week, and THEN make a speech.

But even YOU, in this thread, said the best leader for the US is a military man. What good is the leader of the military if he is DEAD? And there was a good chance of that, and we know now that the plane that went down in the field was actually headed FOR the White House.

So the generals and military leaders that bunk up in the 15 feed of underground concrete war-rooms are "running and hiding"? No, he's getting to a safe place where he can make orders and view from the top.

I don't especially jump with joy knowing that if we were hit with a nuclear bomb that congressional leaders get a war room and I don't. But I'm not going to sit and call them cowards - they'd run for their life, just like I would run for mine.
Quote[/b] ]Bush ignored the UN when he ordered the illegal invasion of Iraq and that right there turned a lot of people against him.
Saddam ignored the UN for 11 years. Why complain about Bush? Seriously, you don't consider the UN to be effective, do you?

11B3

09-30-2003, 02:47 AM

Quote[/b] ]Bush ignored the UN when he ordered the illegal invasion of Iraq and that right there turned a lot of people against him. - Jim Hayden

Besides breaking your shoulders to pat yourself on the back so vociferously, you're an idiot. Why on earth do we want anyone in politics AT ALL that would bow to the wishes of the UN regarding our national security or foreign policy? At that point, just make that commie Koffi our permanent 'Supreme Leader'. If you have possibly read our nation's Constitution, you evidently failed to understand ANY OF IT.

Go back to DU, ANSWER, or the Socialist Worker's Party where you'll be among like-minded individuals. I can't speak for the GOP or even the moderators, but if I could you'd be disowned in a nanosecond.

pRIMrose

09-30-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote[/b] ] Bush ignored the UN when he ordered the illegal invasion of Iraq and that right there turned a lot of people against him.

Jim ~ this is definitely not a "conservative" or "Republican" view, so I must assume you will be running under another banner. http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

As for Bush ignoring the UN, I'm thankful he did. Clinton certainly didn't ignore them and look what it got us. http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Why do you want to blame Bush for the accumulation of years of despicable deleliction of duty by the last administration? Are you just another "Bush" hater?

As for the cost of living over the years, who else but the wonderful liberal unions have driven the cost up of everything that breathes and moves. Throw in a few corporate suits with their pro forma bookkeeping and underhanded shenanigans and it adds to the cost of goods. I mean, aren't they well worth those mega millions/billions they make every year? And then there's Congress who can vote themselves a pay raise while the rest of the country goes through the grief of massive unemployment. :rolleyes:

You call my thinking negative, but I call it realistic. Years ago, in those long gone days you refer to, people were self sufficient and responsible. Today, they are whiners and irresponsible, continually looking for a "free lunch." If this doesn't impact the cost of living in this or any country, then please explain to me where the money comes from, if not the taxpayer. It's a "catch 22" thing ~ more people need more social services, teachers need more money, government employees need more money, and on and on and all this is taxpayer funded. This requires a bigger paycheck for the taxpayer so he can pay more and more taxes so he can support more and more social services....... and here we go loop di loop.

Back in the 50's when I was paying 25 cents a gal for gas, 25 cents for a pack of cigarettes and 20 cents for a loaf of bread, there was very little in the way of "government" subsidized social service, ie Medicare, Medicaid, SSI, WIC, ADFC et al. And we all know where these services started ~ with the "Great Society" and LBJ (D) who was going to fix all the ills of the country through socialism.

So let's don't blame Bush for conditions that have been growing like an open sore for decades. Most of which were ruled by the Democrats.

pRIMrose

09-30-2003, 03:31 PM

PS ~ I still think a National ID would be a good idea. In fact, it could replace all the other ID's. It would be difficult to counterfeit a fingerprint, iris or DNA. The way they can embed chips in cards these days, it should be a "no brainer."

USMC vet

09-30-2003, 04:30 PM

A national ID card is another very bad idea conceived with honorable intentions. *Run by the same people that gave us Amtrak, TSA, the State Dept., CIA, and other highly visible bunglers these days. Not to mention, the former INS, what a joke.

The answer is to police the borders tightly, aggressively locate and deport all illegals in this country. Change the laws which allow for newborns of illegals to be granted citizenship (under fraudulent circumstances). In other words, take away the incentive. No govt/taxpayer largesse to non-citizens, no driver's license, no guns ( that's right, you do not have to be a US citizen to buy a firearm), no instate tuition... how ludicrous.

Since we are not going to limit the ingress of dangerous people, that gives us another argument to take away all the guns. We can pretend that it is only a "registration" program like in Canada, and then, when people refuse, they automatically become criminals. We can go lock them up anytime we want. So, leave the borders open so that when Joe six pack gets p.o.'d we can "fix the problem" and save him from the dangers by taking away all the guns. Easy.

The Constitution requires the federal government to guarantee a constitutional republican form of government to each state. *How is that going to happen when non-citizens are able to fraudulently vote? *I say if our elected officials don't shape up and I mean d*** quick, toss 'em out on their ears. GW is not exempt from this. *Start with AZ, as that seems to be the most obvious place where the elected are telling the electorate to pound sand with respect to the illegal alien problems. *McCain? gone. Kolbe? out. There is a 3rd RINO but I forget his name. Whatever it is, it seems to be appropriate.

Close the borders and kick them out. End of argument.

Semper Fi

Der Alte

09-30-2003, 06:45 PM

USMCvet, I agree with a lot of your comments, but stop and think - if we had a national ID card that could not be easily counterfeited and you had to have proof that you are a citizen to get it - It would then be much easier to catch the 9 to 14 million illegals presently in the country. Without the card you would not be able to vote, buy a gun, buy a car, go to school or college etc, etc. If you were picked up by the police and didn't have a card they would hold you until your citizenship was determined - just make sure you don't leave home without it. http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

pRIMrose

10-01-2003, 06:09 AM

Quote[/b] ]just make sure you don't leave home without it.

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif

USMC vet ~ I totally agree with you about the borders, which in my NSHO, is even more reason to standardize and foolproof a national ID card. It could serve as SS, DL, MED (when eligible) and a plethora of other cards ~ according to what was programmed into the chip. If you don't have a card, then you must be an illegal. Simple!

Jim Hayden

10-08-2003, 01:51 AM

azwhitewolf

“But even YOU, in this thread, said the best leader for the US is a military man. What good is the leader of the military if he is DEAD? And there was a good chance of that, and we know now that the plane that went down in the field was actually headed FOR the White House.”

At the time we were attacked Bush was nowhere near Washington and was never in any real danger at all even if the 4th plane had hit the White House. There was absolutely no logical reason for Bush to have run and hide the way he did. Especially for no 3 weeks. We needed a leader at the time and Bush was nowhere to be found. We needed a President to stand tall before the American people to reassure us and Bush was AWOL.

If it had been me I would have been on every radio and TV station within hours after the collapse of the Twin Towers telling people that their President was doing his job. Then I would have put the pressure on the Congress to Declare War against Iraq. Finally as soon as I received the Congress’ Declaration of War the bombs would have started dropping in Iraqi and our troops would have engaged our enemy totally destroyed them. None of this trying to prove the unprovable or trying to win the UN support. It is very simple Saddam ordered the attack on 9-11 just as he ordered the previous attack on the World Trade Center on 2-23-93. Therefore we have a clear and unmistakable threat against our country, which in turn grants us the right to retaliate with force. We would not have Americans dieing almost daily with no or few Iraqi deaths reported. They want to kill Americans then they must pay the ultimate price for such folly. Hey wake up people they attacked us first and they disserve whatever punishment we dish out. And yes, I do mean all Iraqis and not a select few like Bush is attempting to do right now. We need to make an example of Iraq so others will know exactly what they can expect if they so choose to attack us.

By killing or arresting one suspected terrorist here and another 3 over there we are only helping to create more terrorists. However by going in and treating every breathing person as a suspected terrorist and blowing away anyone who even acts suspicious will teach others who may be harboring terrorist to rethink their positions and stop harboring terrorists. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Egypt, Pakistan and Jordan, just to name a few, are all harboring international terrorists and they will continue to do so as long as they know that we will not do anything to stop them. Then if we ever hope to put a final end to all of this insanity we must cut off the terrorists supply lines which means we will have to deal with the Communist Chinese and the North Koreans who have been supplying them with arms and ammunition as well as training the terrorists for over 5 decades now. The Communist Chinese were supporting and training the North Koreans during the Korean War and the North Vietnamese during the Vietnam War just as they are supporting and training any terrorist group that preaches killing Americans today.

As in Vietnam there is no such thing as an innocent civilian they are all potential terrorists and they must all be treated as such if we want to see fewer of our guys getting killed and more terrorists going to meet ala. The person who gives a soldier or Marine help today could very well be setting a trap for them tonight and plotting to kill many of our men and women. This is a reality of this type of war. We never know for sure just who the enemy really is until after we kill them or they kill one or more of us.

Getting back to the idea of a national ID card. Some food for thought, within 3 months after the new money hit the streets there were millions of forgeries made that are so good that not even the Treasury or the FBI is able to tell the forgeries apart from the good currency. There is not a document or card that cannot be forged. To think that some how we are able to produce anything that cannot be copied or forged is absolute folly. Therefore the only realistic choice we have is to hire people who actually know how to secure our borders and how to protect our Individual Rights and Freedoms at the same time.

FYI – A United States Marine does not brag or pat himself or herself on the back. A United States Marine simply states facts.

Individual Rights and Freedoms come with a price and that price is human blood. However Individual Rights and Freedoms can and in most cases are simple handed over or surrendered to whatever tyranny simply because it is easier to go along to get along. What are your Rights and your Freedoms worth to you?

Jim Hayden in 2004
http://www.geocities.com/jim_hayden2004/
jim_hayden1@lycos.co m

Terri

10-08-2003, 07:56 AM

Quote[/b] ]There was absolutely no logical reason for Bush to have run and hide the way he did. *Especially for no 3 weeks.
What in the heck are you smoking? *I'm getting more than a little tired of seeing you post untruths and ridiculous claims here.

The president was back in the White House that night and you know it.

I've seen you post this twice and it's time for you to prove it. Give me proof that Bush hid somewhere for 3 weeks after 9/11. Give me a link to a reputable report of this by a reputable news organization.

Der Alte

10-08-2003, 08:50 AM

Terri, if Hayden can't or won't try to add something positive to a discussion, but would rather post half truths and outright lies he should just be ignored. Its very difficult to reason with a mindset such as his. Even this long after the event he still doesn't realize that the President doesn't make the call - the Secret Service has to call it as they see it and will keep him safe until they know for sure what is happening.

Jim Hayden

10-09-2003, 02:27 AM

Terri this is what has been bothering me too. Every time I post something you do not want to hear you force me to post links to my information and/or evidence. So I quote French intelligence or Israeli Intelligence oh but those are not reliable sources. So then I quote ABC, CBS, CNN and/or Fox News and again they are not reliable sources of information. No matter whom I quote they are not reliable sources of information yet when it comes to Bush saying anything his word is gospel and cannot be questioned.

The only time the Secret Service has a say in anything is when the President and/or Vice President’s lives are in immediate danger. Bush was at Booker Elementary School in Sarasota Florida at the time we were attacked and his life was never in any immediate danger therefore the Secret Service had no reason to protect him by hiding him away. He was in hiding for a period of 3 weeks after 9-11 and that is a fact if you care to remember or were you like everybody else totally engrossed with what was happening in New York City and the heroic efforts of the people there to notice? He did not get on the radio or Television within an hour or two after we were attacked like any good leader would do in a time like that. He should have been highly visible and in control within an hour after the last plane hit the ground and he knew it was safe. Bush was too busy hiding. Then Bush failed to push the Republican controlled Congress to give him a Declaration of War against Iraq for attacking us on 2-23-93 and again on 9-11-2001. There is something drastically wrong when a Republican President fails to get a Republican controlled Congress to follow his lead. And once again the War Powers Act is not a Declaration of War. The President is denied the authority to engage any enemy other than in self-defense without a Declaration of War from the Congress by the United States Constitution.

Hey I have to accept part of the blame for Bush being elected. I worked very hard here in Tennessee and in several other states to defeat Gore. I would have much rather seen someone else as our candidate but I was out voted and my personal choice dropped out of the race. Now that there is another electing just over the horizon I feel obligated in giving us a viable candidate to run against the Democrats in the up coming election. I know for a fact that Bush does not have a chance of winning. Like it or not that is a sad truth and not just because I say so either. As a Party we must face the fact that the majority of the people did not vote for Bush but rather they voted against Gore. Bush was the lesser of 2 evils. Gore realized that fact and that is why he is not running in this election. Now if the Democrats are able to toss anyone with a little backbone up against Bush, well like his pappy before him this Bush is past history and we will lose control of both the Congress and the Presidency.

I would love to go one on one with General Clark. I know Combat Tactics and I also know that he doesn’t. He is an Air Force General who knows how to keep the planes flying and very little about ground combat tactics. That is why he was relieved of his command. I love going at it against any and all Democrats and I hate it when I find myself having to go up against a fellow Republican. This is the first time in my 55 years that I have been unable to support a fellow Republican.

Jim Hayden in 2004
http://www.geocities.com/jim_hayden2004/
jim_hayden1@lycos.co m

pRIMrose

10-09-2003, 06:34 AM

Jim ~ please don't play "semantical" games here. You know very well that facts/claims are only credible when you can back them up with a (visible) reliable source. Are you so naive as to believe that everyone is an immaculate sheep and should believe something just because you say so because you heard it from so and so. Get real. And as for Bush declaring war on Iraq five minutes after 9/11, you can't be serious. OBL was the topic of conversation re: 9/11 and Afghanistan was the obvious place to start. I can see, with your diplomacy, we would be in a full blown WWIII today. It tooks months of haggling with the UN before Bush finally made up his mind to move on Iraq. Do you seriously think that Congress would have given Bush their blessing to attack Iraq the day after 9/11? And you are running for office? http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/it.gif

Terri

10-09-2003, 07:21 AM

Quote[/b] ]Terri this is what has been bothering me too. *Every time I post something you do not want to hear you force me to post links to my information and/or evidence. *
Yes, it's common practice to ask for a link when we have someone who posts wild, unverified claims.

Quote[/b] ]So I quote French intelligence or Israeli Intelligence oh but those are not reliable sources. *So then I quote ABC, CBS, CNN and/or Fox News and again they are not reliable sources of information.
I don't see that you have quoted anyone, or linked to anyone, to prove your false claim that Bush was missing for 3 weeks.

That is not true. You know it is not true.

Yes, the Secret Service kept the president's plane in the air, with a couple of landings, for most of the day. He returned to the White House that evening, slept in the White House that night, was awakened to go to the safe room during the night, and returned to his bed. The story is out there for anyone interested in it.

Sorry bud, I hope someone can help you cope with your personal issues. We can't do that here.

I'll leave this open in case anyone still wants to discuss the original topic of this thread.

jackbenimble

10-09-2003, 12:52 PM

Quote[/b] (USMC vet @ Sep. 30, 2003 -- 4:30 pm)]The answer is to police the borders tightly, aggressively locate and deport all illegals in this country. Change the laws which allow for newborns of illegals to be granted citizenship (under fraudulent circumstances). In other words, take away the incentive. No govt/taxpayer largesse to non-citizens, no driver's license, no guns ( that's right, you do not have to be a US citizen to buy a firearm), no instate tuition... how ludicrous.
USMC Vet,

I hate paying taxes to give the illegals all these perks and benefits too. But what really brings the illegals here are not perks but jobs. And there are plenty of employers here that are willing to hire them at wages below the going scale for American workers. As long as those jobs exist we could put the Army AND your Marines on the border and they would not be able to stop the flow. (I'll note that we have been unable to stop the flow of Pakistanis into Afganistan or terrorists into Iraq). And how long do we as taxpayers want to pay for that deployment of our armed forces?

The only way to win against illegal aliens is to dry up the jobs. The only way to dry up the jobs is to make it very expensive to hire an illegal vs. hiring an American or legal resident. We need a market driven solution and the way to achieve that is enforcement action against employers who hire illegals. When the jobs dissappear so will the illegals.

But right now it is almost impossible to impose a fine on a company with illegals on the payroll because it is almost impossible to prove their intent to break the law. They can easily make and defend the claim that they did not know a given employee was not entitled to be employed. This is because all of the illegals possess and are working with cheap, eaily obtained false documents. This defense gets the employer completely off the hook and is so effective it is not evene worth the time to try to prosecute them.

I will grant you that somebody could probably counterfit a high tech national ID card. But it would not be that hard to make a high tech card that would be EXPENSIVE to forge and where forgeries would be rare and perhaps mostly limited to the wealthiest of foreign intelligence services, criminals and terrorists. Heck, our passports are pretty low tech and while they have certainly been forged, the forgeries are neither terribly common or cheap.

But we already have a national ID card. It is called a Social Security card and for the heck of it I just ran mine through my $239 color inkjet combination printer/scanner/copier/fax. The copy is so good that once I laminate it between two sheets of contact plastic I'm not sure I will be able to tell the difference between the original and the counterfit.

I would be happy to let an employer off the hook for hiring an illegal if he was fooled by a $5000 fake high tech ID with embedded bio information. But I'm sick of letting them off the hook because they are fooled (or claim they are fooled) by fake social security cards that cost a nickle to make.

Now that State drivers licenses have been compromised, we MUST have some kind of half reliable national ID. My feeling is that we should simply update social security cards from the silly little blue scrap of paper that has been in use for better than 40 years to something with at least rudimentary but preferrably aggressive anti-counterfit measures.

What is so objectionable about having a social security card that at least makes an attempt at being difficult to falsify?

Regards,
Jack