View Full Version : 'Don't ask, don't tell' faces challenge
pRIMrose
07-07-2003, 06:11 AM
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
July 7, 2003
Groups opposed to the military's homosexual ban are exploring whether to revive court challenges to the law, basing new actions on the Supreme Court's June 26 sodomy ruling.
"It's not definite, but I would say it is an 80 percent possibility that we will" file a lawsuit on behalf of service members discharged because they are homosexual, says C. Dixon Osburn, director of the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network.
The group helps those targeted under the exclusion policy, known as "don't ask, don't tell." It also assisted homosexual rights groups in unsuccessful legal challenges in the 1990s.
As homosexual rights advocates plot strategy, pro-military groups are gearing up for a renewed fight. The Pentagon is studying the ruling as well. The Supreme Court struck down the Texas law that criminalized homosexual sodomy, saying the statute violated privacy rights.
"It certainly could embolden the gay groups to go after the law again," says Elaine Donnelly, head of the Center for Military Readiness. "The case could be made that under this new principle the law should be considered unconstitutional."
"The potential for involvement of the armed forces in actual combat routinely make it necessary for members of the armed forces involuntarily to accept living conditions and working conditions that are often spartan, primitive and characterized by forced intimacy with little or no privacy." Homosexual conduct creates "an unacceptable risk to the armed forces' high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability." (http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030707-123020-3632r.htm)
Der Alte
07-07-2003, 09:45 AM
Some of those Pro Gay groups wouldn't like me. I once held a record of getting gays removed from the military. In my day they were referred to as queers, not gays and were considered a security risk in addition to being incompatible with the living conditions in the military.
XNavyGunner
07-07-2003, 06:35 PM
DA, I have to agree with you. If anyone who has never been in the military thinks it's a nonissue then they are wrong. On a ship or in a barracks you have no choice who you live with. That means sharing a room, using communal showers, etc. I know on a ship wehn someone was found to be gay, they were out faster than a blink. I know it's not pc but I disagree with them being in.
lpara
07-08-2003, 12:30 AM
<span style='font-family:comic sans ms'>Too bad they can't change their slogan to "Do ASK, Do TELL, Don't ENLIST!</span>
LabDaddy
07-08-2003, 10:28 AM
Thank you DA, I too am proud to have been one of those responsible for "outing" (discharging) the queers from the military. But, before I retired, I had seen a shift in the proliferation of gays. There were some flaming queens that we could not touch because of the "Don't ask, Don't tell", not that you really had to ask to tell.
The military just is not a place for them. They just want to be supported like a concubine.
Terri
07-09-2003, 12:06 AM
Vietnam Veteran Files Constitutional Challenge to 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' and Federal Sodomy Statute (http://releases.usnewswire. com/GetRelease.asp?id=11 0-07082003)
Janice Ann
07-10-2003, 08:47 AM
I was very happy that the Supreme Court struck down the Texas Sodomy law since I do feel that the government has no right into what is going on behind closed doors between two consenting adults BUT I do feel that there is no room for gays in the military, not because they are gay, for I do feel that they can do the job just as good as a straight person can, but because the majority are straight, young and insecure around gays and there is enough tension in the military already, especially in Iraq wondering if you will be dead tomorrow.
Anyone in this situation needs time to unwind and doesn't need the extra added tension of who is checking out who in the shower or wondering who is going to drop the next bar of soap.
...of course, this again is just my http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twocents.gif
noPEACEwithoutJUSTICE
07-10-2003, 02:21 PM
Quote[/b] ]the government has no right into what is going on behind closed doors between two consenting adults
Bomb making, marijuana growing, porno making, et al., included. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
When there is reasonable suspicion of illegal activity and proper search warrants are obtained, the government has a responsibility to protect the interests of the rest of us and put a stop to the illegal activity and dangerous activity. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/lookaround.gif
What if one of those "two consenting adults behind closed doors" is a prostitute? *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/anon.gif
What if one of those "two consenting adults behind closed doors" has AIDS and is knowingly spreading it to all those he has sex with? http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/shake.gif
Hmmmmm....all of a sudden the "consenting adults behind closed doors" theory also has holes in it, too. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif
IMNSHO, Since I believe homosexuality is a mental defect, they have no business being in the military on psychological grounds. *
Flat feet and wanting to bugger the drill sergeant--both should be enough to keep you out of the military.
matym
07-10-2003, 03:15 PM
Quote[/b] ]When there is reasonable suspicion of illegal activity and proper search warrants are obtained, the government has a responsibility to protect the interests of the rest of us and put a stop to the illegal activity and dangerous activity.
I agreed with you on this point. I sided more with the equal protection arguements that Ms. O'Connor provided.
matym
07-10-2003, 03:25 PM
Here is a recent article from the military journal "Parameters"
Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell: Is the Gay Ban Based on Military Necessity? (http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/03summer/belkin.htm)
As an Air Force veteran I too am very much opposed to having homosexuals in the military. I would dare say most straight people are NOT homophobic. We simply disagree with that lifestyle and find it detestable. That's opinion - not fear. But from a military standpoint, soldiers, airmen, sailors, marines and all the rest have a huge trust issue when you're in a combat situation and living in close quarters with other people. It's very difficult to know if you can trust a homosexual person simply because their entire way of life is based on lies and perversion. That's just true - not hot air. If I am in need of a person to protect my "six", I want him paying attention to what the enemy is doing and being a brave warrior - not paying attention to my "six" or getting all wimpy and panzy and cowardly and running away. Lives are at stake and when lives count, you better be a real man and stand up to the situation. Back then, we called them "queers" " ####" and "homos" and they always had a rough time.
Janice Ann
07-10-2003, 10:51 PM
Quote[/b] ]Bomb making, marijuana growing, porno making, et al., included.
I knew somebody would say something like this. The topic is about "'Don't ask, don't tell' faces challenge " and not about "Bomb making, marijuana growing, porno making".Lets stick with the subject at hand.
Quote[/b] ]Since I believe homosexuality is a mental defect, they have no business being in the military on psychological grounds
You can believe whatever you want to believe. It's a semi-free country but the truth of the matter is how the AMA defines it and not you or me.
Quote[/b] ]It's very difficult to know if you can trust a homosexual person simply because their entire way of life is based on lies and perversion.
Perversion to you but normal for them and as far as their entire way of life is based on lies that is the most bogus statement I have ever had to listen to. What a crock of crap. I can bet that there are a few deep dark little secrets that all of us have here that we don't want anyone to know but if found out would that make yours or my life an entire lie??? I think not.
Janice,
My statements are based not on emotional views or speculation or hearsay. I always try very hard to make sure that when I make bold, definitive statements, that there is sufficient hard fact and evidence to support those statements. I said that the homosexual lifestyle is based on perversion and lies. You dismissed that statement out of hand and became angry and indignant. You didn't ask, "Why do you believe that?" or "What evidence do you have to support that?" So, I will attempt to give you the brief version. If you want details, I would be happy to discuss those, too. I fully expect you not to believe me so I offer you this challenge. Do your own homework. Dig as deep as you can. Look at this issue from every angle and try to do that with an objective mind. Look at sources you think you agree with and those you think you are opposed to. Consider ALL the evidence very carefully. When you have done that, then I challenge you further to prove me wrong with fact and truth and solid, verifiable, documented evidence. Bottom line is - you won't be able to but you are more than welcome to try. Here's what I know based on having done already what I just challenged you to do.
Fact: Homosexuals are bred - not born. The one and only study to report that homosexuals are "born that way" was done by a gay organization. You find which one. They surveyed 400 gay people who all claimed to be born this way and then reported the "fact" that all gays are born that way. The other more than 4,000 studies done by the medical, psychological, social, and psychiatric professionals over the years, using tens of thousands of subjects, DNA studies, biology, and a host of other angles, have resulted in overwhelming proof that homosexuality is NOT in-born. That's science and fact - not opinion. Conclusion: Homosexuality is not "normal" and those who claim different are either lying or horribly misinformed.
Fact: NAMBLA - the North American Man-Boy Love Assoc. openly and boldy encourages that gay men seek out and entice and molest young boys for both pleasure and to recruit them into that lifestyle. Child abuse is what they want you and I to believe is "okay" and normal. In truth, any reasonable person will point to child abuse, in any form, as sick and perverted and wholly unacceptable. Truth is, though, that such is the only way gay men can make their ranks grow - by preying on young boys and the vulnerable.
Fact: Reliable studies have provided significant proof that the vast majority of gay people, both men and women, were the victims of child sexual abuse and incest. The resultant over-whelming psychological effects caused their decision to choose the homosexual lifestyle. Not because they like the same sex, but because they hate and fear the opposite sex.
Fact: The QV Dictionary - not found in libraries - but used by the gay community, has in it hundreds of different terms describing young boys and is replete with open descriptions of how to approach their "targets" to recruit, seduce, confuse, and manipulate impressionable young males and get them to turn to the "dark side." They also describe how to get damning evidence against high level officials and trap them into compromising positions so they can force news laws and such in favor of the homosexual community.
And on it goes. There's no lack of such evidence. The study of this has led me to conclude, and rightly so, in conjunction with my Christian beliefs, that homosexuality is not normal, not right, it is unacceptable and it is based on perversion and lies.
Janice, I have always made it a practice to find out for myself and not just take anyone else's word for something. The reason is simple: if 1,000 people say something foolish, it's still foolish. Truth is NOT based on consensus of opinion.
Go ahead, Janice. Take the challenge and dig deep. I'm thinking once you do - if you do - you will change your mind. I did.
Janice Ann
07-11-2003, 11:43 AM
Jeff,
Quote[/b] ]You dismissed that statement out of hand and became angry and indignant
The keyboard is a very impersonal thing. It is very hard to decipher is someone is angry or indignant or not. So, on the contrary, I was neither angry nor indigent about it. I just think that what you said is typical of what allot of people believe. What I would like to see is you produce facts to back up your statements from reputable sources.
As far as your challenge goes, I invite you to review this from the Psychology Department of the University of California.
<a href="http://psychology.ucdavis.e du/rainbow/html/facts_mental_health. html" target="_blank"> *
*Facts About Homosexuality and Mental Health *
</a>
Quote[/b] ].... Sometimes to their amazement, [researchers] described what they called the "well-adjusted homosexuals" who, in [William] Menninger's words, "concealed their homosexuality effectively and, at the same time, made creditable records for themselves in the service." Some researchers spoke in glowing terms of these men. "The homosexuals observed in the service," noted Navy doctors Greenspan and Campbell, "have been key men in responsible positions whose loss [by discharge] was acutely felt in their respective departments." They were "conscientious, reliable, well-integrated and abounding in emotional feeling and sincerity." In general, "the homosexual leads a useful productive life, conforming with all dictates of the community, except its sexual requirements" and was "neither a burden nor a detriment to society." Fry and Rostow reported that, based on evidence in service records, homosexuals were no better or worse than other soldiers and that many "performed well in various military jobs" including combat
Jeff, when reading this please keep in mind that we are not discussing as to whether homosexuality is pathological or not. We are discussing their suitability in the service. I have already stated that I don't think there is any place for them in the service but for different reason then you have.
After all is said and done, there are allot of heterosexuals that can't cut military life either it is just in the case of the heterosexual you label them as cowards instead of Pansy's
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