From an Islamic Fundamentalist with Love

[RenegadeTalib]

From an Islamic Fundamentalist with Love (Part 1)
Okay this is in response to the many questions I received in the thread entitled "from AlQaeda with love". Here I will state my beliefs on terrorism, without caving into political correctness, pretending that Jihad does not exist or twisting the truth on Islam. What I am going to say is the truth about Islam:

I am a Muslim who was born in Britain of Pakistani Parents. As a Muslim, my reason for existence is to worship Allah, the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and of course, Mohammad (s.a.w.) *I thank Allah for all the things he has given me. From the hair on my head to the feet that carry my weight. From the water that gives us life to the parents that have raised me. For every one of these things I thank my creator, because that is part of worship.

In fact, the most important thing to me is worshiping Allah. Worshiping the creator means recognising that he is infinite yet only one, obeying his commands, seeking refuge in his protection and thanking him for what he has given me. Everything else comes afterwards. These to me are the fundamentals of faith.

Jihad exists in Islam

As it happens, one of the commands of Allah is to fight against Invaders and protect our families, other peoples families, the weak, the oppressed and the orphans from the evil of aggressors. This is called Jihad and it ranges from giving charity to full on physical combat. To outline this, I will quote from the Koran, Allah’s words, in reference to the aggressors:

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Allah here is commanding the believers to drive out the aggressors from “whence they drove you out” and “kill them wherever you find them”. But it also warns that “there should be no hostility except against the oppressors”. In other words, fight only the oppressors, until they desist. *These are indeed strong words and completely destroy the myth that Jihad somehow does not exist.

Fornication, Adultery, Gay sex, Rape and Paedophilia

There are a lot of people around, these days, who like to soften up Islam for popular consumption. Some of the things they miss out when explaining Islam is that fornication, adultery, gay sex and rape are not only prohibited in Islam but also carry corresponding Shariah punishments. And these are by no means soft punishments. For fornication with 3 eye witnesses, it is up to 80 lashings. For Adultery with 4 eye witnesses, it is stoning. For gay sex with 4 eye witnesses, it is the felling of a wall upon the convicted. And for Rape or Paedophilia… it is stoning to death. These punishments, however, can only be carried out by an Islamic government, and currently there are no Islamic governments in the world that follow the exact laws laid down in the Koran.

This is the end of part one. In the next section I will explain the Taliban and why they are far better than any of the current regimes that exist in muslim countries, including US allies, Turkey and Saudi Arabia.

[Saber]

Please explain to me, plain and simply, why muslims blew up and killed civilians in Saudi Arabia last night. Is there some justification for this behavior in the koran?

[GodBlessEveryone]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 13, 2003 -- 8:36 pm)]Please explain to me, plain and simply, why muslims blew up and killed civilians in Saudi Arabia last night. *Is there some justification for this behavior in the koran?
I find it preposterous that you would automatically assume that Muslims carried out that bombing last night. Based on what information? Simply because it was in Saudi Arabia? I don't know who carried out that atrocity, but I think there are other options than blaming Islam.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 13, 2003 -- 8:36 pm)]Please explain to me, plain and simply, why muslims blew up and killed civilians in Saudi Arabia last night.
I expect because Americans blew up civlians in Iraq.

[Terri]

Welcome to the forum GodBlessEveryone.

Check any news site on the internet and you will find stories that begin like this one.

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — Saudi officials linked a 19-member Al Qaeda team Tuesday to terror blasts at three foreign compounds in the capital -- multiple, simultaneous car bombings that killed at least 30 people, including eight Americans. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86790,00.html )

While all Muslims are not Al Qaeda, all Al Qaeda are Muslims as far as I know.

[StarspangledSweetie]

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/star2.gif
...sometimes I wonder/worry if Israel isn't behind all of this...It's frightening to consider that perhaps Bush is in kahouts with Israel on terrorism and world domination. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[GodBlessEveryone]

Quote[/b] (Terri @ May 13, 2003 -- 9:28 pm)]Welcome to the forum GodBlessEveryone.

Check any news site on the internet and you will find stories that begin like this one.

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — Saudi officials linked a 19-member Al Qaeda team Tuesday to terror blasts at three foreign compounds in the capital -- multiple, simultaneous car bombings that killed at least 30 people, including eight Americans. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86790,00.html )

While all Muslims are not Al Qaeda, all Al Qaeda are Muslims as far as I know.
"I can't say for certain it was al Qaeda yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was," Bush told reporters after touring a tornado-damaged town in Missouri. "The war on terror goes on." (Full story) cnn.com

[RenegadeTalib]

I think that perhaps 911 could have been an inside job carried out by Isreali Mossad agents. But this latest attack on American Personnel working for the defence company, Vinnell Corporation, is definitly an AlQaeda job. Why? Because unlike 911, Alqaeda have claimed responsiblity for this one.

But personally I think Americans should be more worried about the 300 tornadoes that have struck America.

[GodBlessEveryone]

OK, well as of my posting it was unconfirmed that Al Qaeda performed the bombing. Touche http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Terri]

Now that the bombing issue is settled I would like to ask everyone's cooperation in not taking this topic off track. The first question was appropriate but let's not go too far afield.

Let's read what Renegade Talib is telling us and ask the questions that we've been wanting to ask.

If anyone, including brand new members, wish to discuss something else, please do it in another thread.

And to SSS and GBE, don't throw around unsubstantiated charges. If you wish to discuss last night's bombing in any way other than how it relates to Islam there is a topic here on that subject.

If you wish to accuse the President of something then go to the appropriate area and be prepared with links to back up your post.

Now we are back to the discussion of Islam and Muslims.

edited by Terri

[Saber]

Well, sorry I got in here before Terri's last post because I would absolutely DEMAND back up to these OUTRAGEOUS and scurilous statements about President Bush. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggun.gif

Oh, so we purposely killed civilians in Iraq so muslims go and kill civilians in Saudi Arabia? THAT's your answer? That's as absurd as saying that we purposely killed civilians in Iraq because murdering muslims in palestine murder civilians in Israel on a bi-weekly basis.

So, you're good with that answer, eh? Where does allah tell you to do that?

[pRIMrose]

Hi RT http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wavey.gif

Thank you for the every enlightening remarks re: being Muslim. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Every religion that I know of has it's moral edicts which must be adhered to in order to be true to one's faith. In a secular society this is accomplished by the separation of church and state. Individuals do not (or at least should not) take it upon themselves to project their translation of religious moral values into the overall workings of any government. It isn't up to religious leaders to hold court over the citizens of the country. We have laws, of, by and for the people, based on moral foundations of course, that dictate what the citizens can or cannot do legally. Historically, fanatical religious leaders are notoriously pious, dictatorial and require staunch loyalty from their followers ~ even to the point of exclusion of governmental law.

In this country, as I'm sure you already know, everyone is free to practice their own religion. That doesn't mean that your religion supercedes the laws of the land.

The vast majority of people in this country do not believe that "God" requires his flock to take it upon themselves individually to be judge, jury and executioner. We have a pecking order http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ~ It's called "law and order". Something that is sadly lacking in most Muslim enclaves ~ at least those in the ME. Without a central government/authority there will always be the threat of anarchy. You simply cannot have dozens of religious leaders dictating law to the people ~ it just doesn't work.

If religion could solve the problems in the ME, then Saddam Hussein would have been unable to commit the barbaric genocide and torture of his own people ~ not to mention the atrocities on other Muslims. You would think that the "good Islamics" who number in the hundreds of millions would have the ability to remove someone like Hussein ~ who was making a mockery of what you claim to be in the Koran.

No religion should be able to declare a "Jihad" on another person, place or thing. My point being, if the Koran advocates this type of behavior, then I respectfully and vehemently disagree with it's tenets. It is not up to me to punish my neighbor for aggression or bad behavior. It is only up to me to ensure that my government has the proper tools to do this for me. That's is what we call a democracy.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 14, 2003 -- 6:23 am)]Oh, so we purposely killed civilians in Iraq so muslims go and kill civilians in Saudi Arabia? *THAT's your answer?
Basicly, yes.

Iraq has been a massive issue for muslims for a very long time. Saddam Hussein is seen by muslims as a former puppet of the US because they know that he received money and weapons from the UK and the USA in the 80s to crush dissent, the recent mass graves uncovered are only testimony to that. And then from 1990 onwards Iraq has been subject to almost daily bombardment from UK and US airplanes. The casualties have been massive. UNICEF estimates that around 500,000 children died due to Americans actions in Iraq. Therefore America is seen as an opressor by muslims. The recent shooting of school kids in Babylon by armed Americans in Iraq only adds support to the image of Americans being brutal oppresors, intent only to kill and subjugate. Americans are therefore seen as valid targets for Jihad. That is the honest truth.

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ]Iraq has been a massive issue for muslims for a very long time.

Ah, yes. And so has israel, and our "gluttonness", and Saudi Arabia, and Turkey, and Kuwait and Qatar......ad nauseum. So, who is it then that muslims like and identify with? Only other "true" muslims? I understand they don't like their own "moderate" muslim "brothers" either. Narrowing down the world quite quickly. The fanatical islamacists will never run out of places to bomb and people to kill in their blind hatred.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (pRIMrose @ May 14, 2003 -- 6:30 am)].
Hi Primrose http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wavey.gif

Quote[/b] ]Historically, fanatical religious leaders are notoriously pious, dictatorial and require staunch loyalty from their followers ~ even to the point of exclusion of governmental law.

I have a few questions for you myself. Can you explain to me what you mean by "notoriously pious"? Also, please point out out to me from history, a religous leader who was more dictatorial than his non-religous counter parts.

Quote[/b] ]We have a pecking order http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ~ It's called "law and order". Something that is sadly lacking in most Muslim enclaves ~ at least those in the ME.

Actually law & order is quite strong in Islamic countries. Take Taliban Afghanistan for example. In the last two years of Taliban rule in the city of Kandahar, there was no crime. Zero. Not a single murder, rape, theft, robbery or even pickpocketing. A relative of mine worked for the Chinese T.Com company that was laying down telephone switches in Afghanistan in 1999. He told me that when it was prayer time, jewlery stall owners would simply lay a cloth over their wares and then make their way to the mosque.

[Terri]

Law & Order: Taliban Style
TESTIMONY: Abdul Saeed, Peshawar:
http://rawa.fancymarketing. net/saeed.htm

Law and Order in Kabul
http://www.sprogress.com/index.pl?Action=Show Article&ID=66 (http://www.sprogress.com/index.pl?Action=Show Article&ID=66)
Of course, arguably, a penal system that sanctions amputations and executions, and a government that prohibits dissent, women's freedom, and most kinds of fun, is too much of a price to pay for law and order.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 14, 2003 -- 7:42 am)]Ah, yes. *And so has israel, and our "gluttonness"
When Muslims see American made tanks demolishing Palestinian homes and American troops shooting at 13 year old school children in the city of Babylon, you should only expect a backlash from muslims. The fact that alot of Americans have a weight problem has nothing to do with anything.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 14, 2003 -- 7:42 am)]I understand they don't like their own "moderate" muslim "brothers" either.
I dont think anyone likes these "moderates", otherwise known as the house of Saud. They seem to specialise in embeszzling billions of dollars worth of oil and running a corrupt archaic dictatorship which serves only the interests of their American protecters.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (pRIMrose @ May 14, 2003 -- 6:30 am)]It is not up to me to punish my neighbor for aggression or bad behavior. *It is only up to me to ensure that my government has the proper tools to do this for me. *That's is what we call a democracy.
Well thats the difference between Islam and Secularist democracy. Islam only allows the choosing of the leader to be democratic if the conditions are stable enough to do so.

As for this latest AlQaeda attack, I was not suprised by it. Bush and Cheney last week were making ridiclous comments like "Al Qaeda is on the run" and "That group of terrorists who attacked our country is slowly but surely being decimated. . . . They're not a problem anymore."

Members of the U.S. intelligence community had bragged to reporters that the terrorist band was crippled, noting that it hadn't attacked during the assault on Iraq.

"This was the big game for them — you put up or shut up, and they have failed," Cofer Black, who heads the State Department's counterterrorism office, told The Washington Post last week.

AlQaeda in effect "put up" just like Cofer Black was taunting them to. Hardly a suprise when you note that AlQaeda lives on publicity.

[Terri]

RT, I'm not sure where all the people are who wanted this discussion but perhaps they will be here today.

In the meantime, I would like to ask a question about you, if you don't mind.

In a general way, who are you? *

Are you a religious leader?

If not, what is your profession?

Are you politically active and would you be willing to tell us the groups and agendas that you support?

[matthewfink]

Quote[/b] ]Mohammad (s.a.w.)

I don't know what (s.a.w.) means...
http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Matthew

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]The casualties have been massive. UNICEF estimates that around 500,000 children died due to Americans actions in Iraq.

Please provide a link to this estimate, and please define the word "actions". *If by "actions" you mean sanctions, then I'd point you in the direction of the numerous palaces owned by the Hussein family, and the overall wealth of the Hussein family while most of the country lived in poverty. *The UN sanctions didn't work, but if you (or UNICEF) are calling the UN sanctions "American actions" then you're making us responsible for Saddam's greed. *It's easy to blame the US for the UN sanctions that Russia, France & China ignored, which in turn allowed Saddam to remain in power, remain very wealthy, and basically resulted in the starvation of millions of Iraqis. To blame the US for all of this is quite simply, ignorant.

Quote[/b] ]Take Taliban Afghanistan for example. In the last two years of Taliban rule in the city of Kandahar, there was no crime. Zero. Not a single murder, rape, theft, robbery or even pickpocketing. A relative of mine worked for the Chinese T.Com company that was laying down telephone switches in Afghanistan in 1999. He told me that when it was prayer time, jewlery stall owners would simply lay a cloth over their wares and then make their way to the mosque.

Crime is a form of corruption. *Crime is a result of freedom. *In Afghanistan, the regime was corrupt and the rulers/oppressors were the criminals. *They were guilty of kidnapping, false imprisonment, and an infinite number of civil torts. *Their crime was inflicted upon the people of Afghanistan who were subjected to live under laws which restricted their freedom to that of an indentured servant.

Not to mention the crime of aiding, abetting, and housing a known terrorist organization.

So maybe there was order, but the law was perverse and oppressive.

[Terri]

Perhaps this from the UK Times Online may help explain what has contributed to the deaths of iraqi children.

Saddam's billions from oil for food corruption (http://www.timesonline.co.u k/article/0,,2-655976,00.html)

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]When Muslims see American made tanks demolishing Palestinian homes and American troops shooting at 13 year old school children in the city of Babylon,

This problem can be solved very easily.

*You don't * place firearms in the hands of women and children and then have them point them at armed soldiers!

*Only a lunatic or somebody who has no regard for the lives of his children and women would do that.

MEN fight wars! *They do not place their women in front of them as shields. *Those are the acts of COWARDS!

[pRIMrose]

Quote[/b] ]I have a few questions for you myself. Can you explain to me what you mean by "notoriously pious"? Also, please point out out to me from history, a religous leader who was more dictatorial than his non-religous counter parts.

I'm referring to the sanctimonious bent that most religious leaders project to their followers ~ many of whom are far from being what they seem. Haven't we just witnessed this in the Catholic church? Religion should only operate within the confines of a well established and orderly society that depends on lawful checks and balances dictated by "the people" who are able to distinguish between being led blindly through emotional coercion and that of orderly participation in laws that they have helped to make.

And yes, there have been many non-religious or secular leaders who were also afflicted with an "omnipotent" mindset which led to their ultimate destruction. Saddam Hussein is of this type. I find it ironic that the muslim community seems to hate Christians, Jews (Americans) but chose to live under the boot of Hussein for thirty long tortuous years. Hussein used the Islamic religion against his own people. He turned the masses into his own personal assassination machine. The bodies are being dug up as we speak. They have reportedly just found another mass grave with approximately 15,000 bodies. How did this happen? Why did the "good muslims" allow this? How can anything that the US has done begin to compare with this barbaric behavior. Why would millions of muslims rather live here in the US than in their own country/region? Why would they come to a place that they profess to hate? These are questions I would like answered.

[TEX-SET]

Hi everyone,

I am sad to read all of this today. It makes my heart ache. So many ready to place blame on the USA for all of their problems, when all we have tried to do is help people from all over the world to have what we have... and that is a Nation Blessed By God. Sure, we are not perfect, never clamed to be. But if we are so bad, why does every other Nation in the world call on us when they need help? Why is it that every country that has gone to war against us, is better off now then they were when they fired the first shot? We are oppressers? Then why do we help them set up their own governments, and then do business with them to help them become independent? ( Is that called forgive and forget?) I know myself for one remembers how it feels to be the only one in class that didn't have the money to buy an ice cream, so, when I get one for my kids, I make sure that all the kids in the room has one too... isn't that what we are doing as a whole? Trying to help others have the freedom to worship as they please, work where they please, live where they please, to relax with their family at night in the safty of the home that their work provided? And for this, we are villians. Children are told we are their enemy and they will be blessed if they kill us, not to mention how much money their family will receive for killing us. I wonder, do they still get paid if we defend ourselves, and we don't die? What is the price, their family's receive for failed attempts? Does anyone know the meaning of this statement? " First remove the bolder from your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from your Brother's eye."

GOD BLESS THE USA. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag4.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Terri @ May 14, 2003 -- 11:58 am)]In the meantime, I would like to ask a question about you, if you don't mind.

In a general way, who are you? *

Are you a religious leader?

If not, what is your profession?
Nope, Im just a student who came upon this website by chance while browsing through google. Im not really a member of a group but I was once quite interested in an Islamic political group that wanted to Liberate Iraq from Saddam Hussein through a peaceful coup and instill a government that would be based on Islamic laws.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (matthewfink @ May 14, 2003 -- 12:04 pm)]Quote[/b] ]Mohammad (s.a.w.)

I don't know what (s.a.w.) means...
http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Matthew
s.a.w can be best translated as (peace be upon them). After saying the name of any one of Allah's prophets we pray for them by saying "peace be upon them".

[Terri]

I've just deleted 3 off topic posts from this thread.

The thread is about Islam.

It is not about Israel or Nigeria.

Any further off topic posts will be deleted and repeat offenders will be suspended.

Members of this board have asked for a discussion of Islam with Renegade Talib and that is all that will take place in this particular topic.

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]Nope, Im just a student who came upon this website by chance while browsing through google. Im not really a member of a group but I was once quite interested in an Islamic political group that wanted to Liberate Iraq from Saddam Hussein through a peaceful coup and instill a government that would be based on Islamic laws.

I appreciate knowing that.

Can you compare the kind of government you wanted for Iraq to another country?

Also, what kind of government do you think they will have when the US leaves the country?

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 14, 2003 -- 12:11 pm)]Please provide a link to this estimate, and please define the word "actions". *If by "actions" you mean sanctions, then I'd point you in the direction of the numerous palaces owned by the Hussein family, and the overall wealth of the Hussein family while most of the country lived in poverty. *The UN sanctions didn't work, but if you (or UNICEF) are calling the UN sanctions "American actions" then you're making us responsible for Saddam's greed. *It's easy to blame the US for the UN sanctions that Russia, France & China ignored, which in turn allowed Saddam to remain in power, remain very wealthy, and basically resulted in the starvation of millions of Iraqis. *To blame the US for all of this is quite simply, ignorant.

Im not blaming anyone accept for the muslims. Especially the so called muslims of Saudi Arabia. The House of Saud should never have let these Americans into Iraq. Kuwait should never have trusted the Americans. They knew of the US support of Isreal. They knew the American's method of war by just looking at Vietnam where 2 million Vietnamese were systematicly slaughtered by American invaders. The blame lies firmly at the feet of the fat corrupt sheikhs who turned down the proposal of Muslims fighting Saddam Hussein and instead allowed Americans to carpet bomb Iraq.

The result was that half a million children were in effect starved to death because of the constant bombardment and the enforced sanctions on food and medication (see: http://www.unicef.org/newsline/99pr29.htm) As an example of the kind of oppresive actions of the Americans, there is the time when Saddam Hussein bought $1.5 billion worth of food for Iraqis, only for the Americans to intervene and block it from entering the country, leaving millions of children starved and prone to diseases.

It came to the point where 200 children were dieing in Iraq every day. In September 1998, Denis Halliday head of the UN humanitarian programme in Iraq resigned stating that he could no longer administer 'an immoral and illegal' policy. His successor, Hans von Sponeck also later resigned, along with the head of the World Food Programme. Compare this kind of system to pre-1991 when Iraq had the best health system in the whole of the middle east (see: http://pilger.carlton.com/iraq).

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (navyblue @ May 14, 2003 -- 1:07 pm)]You don't place firearms in the hands of women and children and then have them point them at armed soldiers!
No one had weapons apart from the Americans. It was a demonstration by Iraqis who wanted Americans to get out of their country. The Americans, as usual claimed that children were pointing guns at the armed Americans to somehow justify what is a blatant act of murder. The Iraqis have continously stated that none of the demonstrators or the those murdered had any weapons on them.

[AngelsRWorldChamps]

Please explain to me, plain and simply, why muslims blew up the world trade center the Pennatagon and God knows what else if we not stoped them on September 11th,and killed civilians including the only girl I will ever love. Is there some justification for this behavior in the koran?

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]No one had weapons apart from the Americans. It was a demonstration by Iraqis who wanted Americans to get out of their country. The Americans, as usual claimed that children were pointing guns at the armed Americans to somehow justify what is a blatant act of murder. The Iraqis have continously stated that none of the demonstrators or the those murdered had any weapons on them.

Well Talib, I guess this really comes down to who's version of the story you choose to beleive. *

As a former member of the U.S. Armed Forces, I can tell you that any United States Military personnel, could and * WOULD *refuse to obey an order to fire upon unarmed, innocent civilians.

On the other hand, they would fire upon any person directing weapons at them. *This would be allowed under the principle of self defense.

By the way Talib, would you mind telling us your age?

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]The result was that half a million children were in effect starved to death because of the constant bombardment and the enforced sanctions on food and medication (see: http://www.unicef.org/newsline/99pr29.htm) As an example of the kind of oppresive actions of the Americans, there is the time when Saddam Hussein bought $1.5 billion worth of food for Iraqis, only for the Americans to intervene and block it from entering the country, leaving millions of children starved and prone to diseases.

How do you think Saddam Hussein paid for all those palaces if not from Oil for Food money? How did he buy all those weapons that he stored in every school in the country?

As to the Saudi rulers, we have a point of agreement. I don't like them any better than you do. They've played both ends against the middle for too long and it's time for both the Americans and the Saudi people to say enough.

If you don't mind, I'd like to know a bit more about you. If I've missed it in your posts, I apologize.

Is Islam your family religion or have you converted to Islam? *

I believe you said you live in Great Britain. Have you always lived there?

What country is your family from?

What do you think of Great Britain and of it's government?

Sorry, if this is too many questions but I don't know any Islamic fundamentalists and I have lots of questions. If you are interested in knowing more about Americans we will answer in turn.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Terri @ May 14, 2003 -- 6:36 pm)]Can you compare the kind of government you wanted for Iraq to another country?
The kind of government that should be brought about in Iraq, is the one which the Iraqis want. And there is a popular chant at demonstrations in Iraq, "No USA, No Saddam, we want, Islam". If they are looking for an Islamic government, the cloesest one would have been the Taliban government of Afghanistan. But I expect they would want a less hardline version of the Taliban.


Quote[/b] ]Also, what kind of government do you think they will have when the US leaves the country?

I doubt there will ever be a stable government in Iraq which has US-backing because there are approximately 8000 AlQaeda Mujahideen trained from Afghanistan now in Iraq. They entered the country between Feburary and April when Americans were just preparing to invade. BinLaden's greatest desire is to have his Mujahideen fighting US-troops on the ground in a large scale gureilla war. This is going to be an oppurtunity he can not miss because the US-troops are moving into Iraq. All he needs now is the will of the people to wage a gureilla war. If the Americans continue to shoot at crowds of protestors, I think he will get it.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (AngelsRWorldChamps @ May 14, 2003 -- 7:07 pm)]Please explain to me, plain and simply, why muslims blew up the world trade center the Pennatagon and God knows what else if we not stoped them on September 11th,and killed civilians including the only girl I will ever love. *Is there some justification for this behavior in the koran?
First thing, I am extremely sorry to hear that about your love. Since this must be a very emotional situation for you I doubt that I will be able to explain to you that since this is a war, people on both sides are loosing lives.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Terri @ May 14, 2003 -- 7:44 pm)]How do you think Saddam Hussein paid for all those palaces if not from Oil for Food money? How did he buy all those weapons that he stored in every school in the country?
Iraq had those palaces built long before the sanctions and bombing started. You have to rememember that before the Gulf War, Iraq was the richest country in the middle east, it had a 100% literacy rate and the best health system in the ME. All due, in part, to its massive oil reserves that work like a never ending cash machine. Naturally in such a state of affairs, many lavish palaces got built, much like in Saudi Arabia and the UAE. You have only to see the many other gulf countries with their oil billionaires and extradinary life styles to get a glimpse of what Iraq was like, before the Gulf War.

Im not a fan of Saddam Hussein. To me he is just another one of those Middle Eastern tinpot dictators. But rumours that he put weapons in every school in Iraq, sounds like the usual rumours that get spun whenever a war needs to be sold to the public.

> Is Islam your family religion or have you converted to
> Islam?

Islam is my family religion. I must admit though that my family before was not very religous. It was only after I reached upper school and my sister started going to university that us siblings really started looking at what our religion was about. Eventually our interest in Islam spread to the rest of the family and, praise be to allah, my father now also prays the 5 times daily prayer.

> I believe you said you live in Great Britain. Have you always
> lived there?

Yes I was born in the UK along with the rest of my siblings.

> What country is your family from?

My parents are from Pakistan.

> If you are interested in knowing more about Americans we
> will answer in turn.

Thanks for the offer. I would like to ask Americans this question. What do you see as your point in life?

[pRIMrose]

Hi RT http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wavey.gif Thank you for taking the time to tell us more about yourself and your way of life. It really helps when trying to understand why a person responds in certain ways.

Quote[/b] ]"No USA, No Saddam, we want, Islam". If they are looking for an Islamic government,

WADR ~ except for the "elites" in most ME countries, can you explain to me why most of the people look like raggad beggars ~ and just which ME country has had any meaningful government? (Except for Israel, of course). A government of, by and for the people? One that isn't continually at war with itself, usually because of religious conflicts?

BTW ~ do you subscribe to the custom of women being oppressed? Of walking ten paces behind the men (euphamism for subserviance) http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif and being covered from head to toe when out in public? Why are women so demeaned and why are their actions judged differently than men?

Quote[/b] ]The result was that half a million children were in effect starved to death because of the constant bombardment and the enforced sanctions on food and medication.

You'll forgive me if I chalk this up to pure unadulterated propaganda. Since the toppling of Saddam from Iraq it has, and is being found every day, that Iraq was doing a very good business with many countries in flagrant non compliance with UN sanctions. To the tune of billions and billions of dollars. Be that as it may, we all know it costs dearly to build a military. Saddam spent the "people's" money unwisely by invading Kuwait. If we were the aggressors that muslims would have other believe, we would have removed Saddam Hussein back in 1991. (In retrospect, a big mistake on our part.)

How can you possibly compare sanctions to what Hussein did to his own people? He murdered hundred of thousands over the past twenty five years. I guess he spared them from starvation. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif I'm being facetious here, but the facts remain.

As for being a wealthy country ~ it is still a wealthy country ~ and now perhaps the people will once again be able to share in that wealth. The money Saddam transferred out of the country into other bank accounts would run a small country for quite awhile. The money they dug up, which is close to a billion dollars, would have gone a long way in helping poor starving people. And I don't believe for a nanosecond that the US had one iota to do with the dispersion of food and medicine. This country just doesn't operate that way. We give more charity and help to other countries than the rest of the world combined. If the war lords and clerics interfere with dispensing these things it isn't the fault of the US. We do know that there was enough money to buy hoards of guns and ammunition. Almost every home was converted into an arsenal. And, finally, if Saddam could have these things smuggled into his country without detection, I'm sure he could have found a way to smuggle in food for his people.

Quote[/b] ]I doubt there will ever be a stable government in Iraq which has US-backing because there are approximately 8000 AlQaeda Mujahideen trained from Afghanistan now in Iraq.

You may be right, at least for the present. As long as the Islamic religion cannot and will not differentiate between "terrorists" who not only want to kill Americans, but have no compunctions about killing each other, and what Islam is supposed to be, a peaceful religion, we will be continually fighting this war on terrorism. I might add, it was one thing when muslims were only killing each other, but it became up close and personal when they decided to bring the fight to our own shores. Like it or not, this *is* a war on Islam ~ the part that refuses to be peaceful. This isn't a traditional war between countries and anyone who thinks so is misinformed. We are fighting radical religious fanatics and unfortunately they are in many countries. Even right here in our own country. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

When you have someone like BinLaden working in tandem with hostile leaders thoughout the muslim community, it is a prescription for disaster. It is inconceivable to western culture that people can be so hate filled as to wrap themselves in explosives and use themselves as a weapon.

Here is a very interesting article written back in December of 2001. AN ISLAMIC FIFTH COLUMN (http://www.opinionjournal.c om/editorial/feature.html?id=9500 1643)

Quote[/b] ]All this came to light in the most significant divide in Britain's multicultural history: the Rushdie affair, which uncovered a fifth column whose literary criticism entailed book burning and death threats. The British Muslim community echoed the call of Ayatollah Khomeini to kill the writer. There were denunciations of Salman Rushdie in every mosque. Not one mullah--not one--raised a voice in support of freedom of creativity; no mullah ventured the opinion that the fatwa was wrong. Though the supposedly liberal Muslim commentators whom the British press retains were not in favor of the death sentence, none would extend himself to defend the book. One ugly book burning was led by a Muslim who was forced to admit that Iran had financed him.

More later...........

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]Iraq had those palaces built long before the sanctions and bombing started.

That is not completely true. Most of them were built some time ago but we also saw photos of palaces under construction. There have been many news reports of orders approved through the Oil for Food program of luxury items headed for Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]You have only to see the many other gulf countries with their oil billionaires and extradinary life styles to get a glimpse of what Iraq was like, before the Gulf War.

Yes, we see that the rulers are very well off indeed. Not so for their people.

Quote[/b] ]Thanks for the offer. I would like to ask Americans this question. What do you see as your point in life?

I've thought about how to answer this. There is no one answer because America is not a country ruled by one religious or political belief. Sometimes those who are rigid make the mistake of thinking this is our weakness while it's actually our strength.

We have a saying in our country. God, Family, Country. *This would sum it up for many people but not all. God is both our authority and our guide for life. Family is extremely important in America. For most of us country is also extremely important.

Radical Islam should make no mistake, we will defend America and do so in a pro-active way. We will use every bit of our wealth, our power and our lives also, to defend this country that we love.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]I would like to ask Americans this question. What do you see as your point in life?

To make sure my kids (whenever I have them) are raised right and are good people.

[pRIMrose]

Food for thought ~ http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

When America is forced to defend herself against Islamic terrorism it is dealing with only one religion. When radical Islam attacks America(ns) they are not only attacking a country, they are attacking many relgions. Even their own.



Quote[/b] ]I would like to ask Americans this question. What do you see as your point in life?

This is the truly amazing and wonderful part of living and believing in democracy. You are totally free to dedicate your life to almost anything you wish. Some prefer to dedicate the majority of their lives in the service to religious beliefs. Others find satisfaction in devoting their lives to their families and or friends. Many find they have no need for religion and still they do many good works. The glue that holds these people together is the very fact that no one dictates what they are to believe ~ but they have a common goal. To live side by side in peace within the confines of a free and democratic country. Most feel a great allegiance to this country ~ not because it is any certain religion, but because it is our country. We here in the United States of America are living proof that people of various ethnicities, religions and races can live together. No individual group can take it upon themselves to commit genocide or aggression on others. Without a central authority (country/government) anarchy rules. My gang is bigger than your gang mentality. So I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born into this great county ~ and it would appear that the millions who have come here and are still coming, are looking for something other than what they left.

If they come here with the thought in mind to change us from being Americans, then they have wasted a trip.

[azwhitewolf]

First of all, to Renegade Taliban;

Thank you for opening your religion, your mind, your opinions and your thoughts to us all. *I know it may seem overwhelming at times to answer so many people's questions. *But YOU are the first person who has ever been willing to share your faith, and answer questions. *

I hope I don't sound too stupid asking questions, and I hope you know that something "offensive" that might be said is not personal. *I have read numerous accounts on religion (Bible, Qu'ran, and about 6 others) before I picked Christianity. *I will not attempt to convert you, but I do wish to understand some insights that have eluded me on Islam.

Quote[/b] ][2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.


Drive "them" out - unbelievers? Would this suggest that Muslims cannot co-exist with unbelievers?

Would you define oppressors? Again, who exists in this category? Unbelievers? Or people who hate Islam, or what? Who were the "unbelievers" and "oppressors" when this was given to Mohammed?

"No persecution" meaning a group of non believers, or a group that is trying to dismantle Islamic rule, or a group of people that try to make Islam non-existent?

Trying to stay on the topic, *how does "Allah" translate? *Most people call God, "God". *I've heard that Allah means "the greatest". *(correct me if I'm wrong, please) *Assuming this is the case, was there a question on who WAS the greatest? * The God of Noah, Abraham and Jesus was "Father", "Lord", "Provider" - easily over 80 names were given God in the Bible, yet less were given in the Book of Mormon. *Even in Christianity, some people use Lord, Father, God, Heavenly Father, etc... what is the origin of Allah, and how do you distinguish that?

Was Mohammed a prophet? *A teacher? *Chosen by God? *What was his purpose? *

Do you think a country that is soley governed by Islam and its teachings would be ideal? *

AZWW

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]sometimes I wonder/worry if Israel isn't behind all of this...It's frightening to consider that perhaps Bush is in kahouts with Israel on terrorism and world domination

All some big, huge conspiracy theory...right?
I believe that President Bush has made it pretty clear in some of his speaches regarding the new "road map" to peace in the Middle East, that Israel has some things to do as well. President Bush realizes (I believe) that Israel is not perfect in all of this, and that there are compromises that must be made on their side as well. I've heard that more out of President Bush than any other President in the past.

As for Israel being behind all of this....I think you should read up on Middle Eastern politics and history! I've been doing a lot of that lately. Israel has it's own mistakes and faults in all of this, and I think everybody needs to realize that...but the bottom line is that the Arab nations want Isreal OUT OF THERE, they are still extremely upset by how the nation of Israel was set up, and rightly so on many accounts. Because of the hatred that the Arab nations have for Isreal, and the fact that the U.S. backs Israel and has armed her to be more powerful militarily than the Arab nations, they hate us as well. It is a quagmire of hatred, different beliefs, different cultures, and the unwillingness for compromise that has caused what we are seeing today!

Denise

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]So I thank God every day that I was fortunate enough to be born into this great county ~ and it would appear that the millions who have come here and are still coming, are looking for something other than what they left.

If they come here with the thought in mind to change us from being Americans, then they have wasted a trip.


Amen to that RIM! I am so thankful that I was born in this wonderful country! I will take up arms and fight anybody who tries to change it or take it from me! God has truly blessed this country!

Denise

[Idpatriot]

Hi Talib, (I hope it is ok for me to call you Talib).

I find this very interesting to have you in this forum, because I have been studying up on Islam and what it represents for about 6 months now. I've read a lot, researched a lot, and find it very interesting!

First of all, I am Christian, but find other religions and how they came about very interesting.

I just have a few questions for you as well, based on some things I have learned along the way....

1) What is the goal of Islam? If I understand correctly, the goal is to convert everybody to Muslims...right?
If they do not convert to Islam, then they are to be treated differently and unkindly because they do not believe in the Qu'ran. Correct?
"Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believers neither of God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His Apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued" (Sura 9:29) "Muhammad is God's Apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" (Sura 48:29)

Muslims believe that the Qu'ran resided and existed in heaven with Allah before it was ever revealed to Muhammad...is that correct? How can that be proven?? How do you KNOW that the Qu'ran is the EXACT words of God? If it IS the exact word of God, then there should be NO error or confusion...right? Yet, in Sura 56:15-24 it says the following:
"the blessed shall recline on jeweled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds."

What the heck is that all about? If we are in heaven with God, there will be no need for that type of reward or pleasure. There will be no need for maidens that are chaste....being in heaven with God will be the reward. What exactly do Muslims believe heaven is? It also seems that it is only the men who are rewarded, and it is always the women who are slaves to the men.....do you believe God only rewards and cherishes the men?

This is a quote I read from a little boy who was in a school run by Hamas, he was eleven years old when he wrote this:
" I will make my body a bomb that will blast the flesh of Zionists, the sons of pigs and monkeys....I will tear their bodies into little pieces and will cause them more pain than they will ever know."
After saying this, his classmates shouted, "Allah Akhbar," (God is great), and his teacher shouted, "May the virgins give you pleasure".

Ok, now when I read something like that, I have a very difficult time believing that this comes from a loving and merciful God! The God I love and know loves the little children and would never expect them to go blow themselves up to kill others. Do YOU honestly believe this? How can this be justified?

Jesus taught us to love our neighbors, and to love our enemies, yet Muhammad seems to teach killing and hatred of your enemies and those who do not believe in the teachings of the Qu'ran.

One more question....is their a grave for Muhammad somewhere? Are the remains of his body in the grave?

Denise

[USNfromME]

Having read the Koran, studied many threads here and elsewhere, researched Islam and personally interacted with Muslims in Pakistan, Bahrain and Yemen, I have come to the conclusion that Islam is not a religion - it is a cult.

The Koran is a blueprint for civil mastery more akin to Mein Kampf or Mao's Little Red Book than to a major religion. Most of the book stresses what has to be done to control others. Where is the part about goodness and reward, peace and charity or a version of the Golden Rule? Right or wrong?

If one was to approach the Koran as a novel, it would be much more illuminating. You had a nomad, Muhammed the Bedouin, traipsing around the desert with his camels and chattel. He needed some rules. OK, if you steal from me, I'll cut off your hand. Talk bad to or about me and I'll cut out your tongue. Small group, no cops, yeah, that's the ticket.

Now this worked so well, that when his caravan was attacked by "others," he decrees that the attackers should be killed for the affrontery of attacking HIM. But it was in his best interest to try to get the men to join his group and he become more powerful.

Join or die became an effective recruiting tool and soon he found himself with a pretty sizable following. So, what did he have to offer his followers except their tongues and hands? He already had the Bible. Like many other petty despots who would be king, he decided to add his own chapters. He called them the Koran.

He stirred his followers into a fervor with valiant tales of the mighty Bedouin tribes, tales of conquest in earlier times and promises of greatness and riches to come. Finally, he offered them the ultimate reward. When they died they would go to the great oasis. They would be cooled by gentle breezes. They would be attended to by children and virgins. They would sip sweet wine and have all the dates and fruit they desire. What more could a desert wanderer desire?

The desert people who existed in a world of heat, sand and poverty, found his vision to be very appealing. As his following increased and his stature grew greater, more and more people heard and followed his word. When people had nothing the promise of paradise is compelling.

Clerics and tyrants use Islam to keep a firm hold on the people. They don't tolerate dissent. They maintain an absolute control over production and distribution. They educate their children to hate outsiders and exhort their people to martyrdom. They feed the hatred toward non-Muslims to refocus the rage of their own people from their own misdeeds.

I have been pretty much of a moderate here as I've tried to have anyone dispute my conclusion. So far, all I've seen is just more *evidence in support of my original premise.

Islam is antithetical to freedom and independence. Democracy and Islam can not co-exist peacefully. We are war with Islam and we've been at war for a millenium. Islamists, by their words and deeds, will not rest until the West submits.

Sorry, I own no white flags!

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ]Clerics and tyrants use Islam to keep a firm hold on the people. They don't tolerate dissent. They maintain an absolute control over production and distribution. They educate their children to hate outsiders and exhort their people to martyrdom. They feed the hatred toward non-Muslims to refocus the rage of their own people from their own misdeeds.

I have been pretty much of a moderate here as I've tried to have anyone dispute my conclusion. So far, all I've seen is just more evidence in support of my original premise.

Islam is antithetical to freedom and independence. Democracy and Islam can not co-exist peacefully. We are war with Islam and we've been at war for a millenium. Islamists, by their words and deeds, will not rest until the West submits.

Sorry, I own no white flags!


Nor do I. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Superb USN........positivel y superb and 100% exactly what I have found and believe as well (except I claim no "moderate" in this saber-rattler)!

[Terri]

Talib, you are of the Wahhibi sector of Islam. Isn't that right?

What do you feel about the other factions of Islam? Are they infidels or also valid practioners of Islam?

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]Sorry, I own no white flags!

Spoken like a true Navy man!

"I have not yet begun to fight"
(John Paul Jones - USS Bon Homme Richard)

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Terri @ May 15, 2003 -- 8:47 am)]We have a saying in our country. God, Family, Country. *This would sum it up for many people but not all. God is both our authority and our guide for life. Family is extremely important in America. For most of us country is also extremely important.
With utmost respect, I would like to ask you about the "God, Family, Country" rule. If God is your authority then why do you have gambling in your country? In fact, from what I have heard you have a whole city dedicated to gambling and stripping girls, called Las Vegas. Apparently this place is so rife with fornication and adultery that condoms are sold in toilets in case two people feel the sudden urge to have sex after having just met in a casino.

Also, If family is so important why do you have the highest suicide rate in the world bar Japan? Surely family helps a person become more stable not unstable? According to womedia.org one in two american children will live in a single-parent family at some point in childhood. It also reports that Nearly half of all american marriages end in divorce.

In fact from what I have heard from talking to americans on the internet, many girls loose their virginity in a bar toilet, drunk, with a man they dont know and are often still under 16. Apparently this occurs so often, girls are being taught how to use condoms in class.

Abortionfacts.com says that every year over a million american women abort their child. I have even heard that this is called "family planning".

I am not trying to criticise Americans because I am sure that this is the kind of life style they want for themselves. What I am trying to do is to understand what Americans as individuals see as their point in life.

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ] In fact, from what I have heard you have a whole city dedicated to gambling and stripping girls, called Las Vegas.

That's quite true Renegade. It's quite a place. I understand the 9/11 muslims who murdered 3,000 people had quite a good time there before they went to meet the virgins....or so it's been reported.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Terri @ May 15, 2003 -- 6:49 pm)]Talib, you are of the Wahhibi sector of Islam. Isn't that right?

What do you feel about the other factions of Islam? Are they infidels or also valid practioners of Islam?
I think your refering to Wahhabi. And no I am not Wahhabi, I am sunni. But I do consider them to be muslim as they also consider me to be muslim as well.

To be honest, apart from Shiaism, the sects in Islam are not too different from each other, they vary only in minor scholarly detail. There are however some few sects that are completely off their heads but they tend to be very small and most people have not even heard of them.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 15, 2003 -- 8:54 pm)]That's quite true Renegade. *It's quite a place. *I understand the 9/11 muslims who murdered 3,000 people had quite a good time there before they went to meet the virgins....or so it's been reported.
Sabre do you really think that AlQaeda did 911? I think that AlQaeda did the recent bombing of Vinnel coorp personnel in Riyadh. And I think they did today's bombing of 21 Caltex/Shell petrol stations in Pakistan. But flying 3 aeroplanes with absoloute accuracy into targets which left 2 of the tallest buildings in the world completley demolished? Personally, I really find that hard to beleive unless they had inside cooperation.

[Terri]

Talib, those are fair questions. First I will give you a general explanation that may help.

Americans have freedom to practice any religion they choose or no religion at all. We have the freedom to support any political persuasion that we want no matter how strange it may seem to others. There are a lot of religions and a lot of political parties.

Quote[/b] ]I would like to ask you about the "God, Family, Country" rule.
First, it isn't a rule. It's a creed that a lot of us believe but not all of us.

Quote[/b] ]In fact, from what I have heard you have a whole city dedicated to gambling and stripping girls, called Las Vegas. Apparently this place is so rife with fornication and adultery that condoms are sold in toilets in case two people feel the sudden urge to have sex after having just met in a casino.
Las Vegas is built on gambling and tourism. There are strippers there and many other things that I wouldn't personally approve of. Yes, condoms are commonly sold in restrooms in many bars across the country.

Quote[/b] ]Also, If family is so important why do you have the highest suicide rate in the world bar Japan? Surely family helps a person become more stable not unstable? According to womedia.org one in two american children will live in a single-parent family at some point in childhood. It also reports that Nearly half of all american marriages end in divorce.

We have freedom to make bad decisions and some people make them. I'm not sure your figures are correct but it is true that far too many children live in one parent families.

Quote[/b] ]In fact from what I have heard from talking to americans on the internet, many girls loose their virginity in a bar toilet, drunk, with a man they dont know and are often still under 16. Apparently this occurs so often, girls are being taught how to use condoms in class.
I don't think that many girls are losing their virginity in a bar toilet but sex is much too freely given out of wedlock in my opinion. Sex education in schools is a fact. It's different in every school district and many people do not approve of it.

Quote[/b] ]Abortionfacts.com says that every year over a million american women abort their child. I have even heard that this is called "family planning".

This is a great division in America. I don't know the figures but yes, abortion is legal. It is the main issue of the Democrat political party. Conservative Republicans are against it. Most of the people you are meeting on this site are conservatives and most are Republicans. Personally, I consider abortion to be murder.

We are not perfect people. We are free people with the right to choose. Sometimes that involves wrong choices.

One thing that you should not do is assume that the majority of life in America is the way that it is portrayed in American movies or American TV shows. There are people like that here but most of the people are families, raising children, going to church, working, and doing good things for their communities.

On the other hand, we do not treat women as second class citizens, we do not cut the hands off thieves, we only execute criminals after a lengthy examination of the facts and court trial. We do not conduct Jihad against the world.

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]Islam is not a religion - it is a cult.


Absolutely!! I agreed with your whole post USN. I have also found what you have found with my studies. I find it interesting that Muhammad studied the Torah and was pretty well versed in it before he had his "vision" from Gabriel and the Qu'ran was "given" to him. When you compare the Torah and the Qu'ran, they run pretty parallel to each other in their style.....it is interesting as well that Qu'ran teaches that it was Ishmael, not Isaac that Abraham took to the altar to offer to God as a sacrifice. Gabriel stopped Abraham, and the covenant was made with God through Isaac and his people....the Jewish race. Ishmael is the father of the Arabs....so isn't it interesting that Muhammad, through the Qu'ran changed it to be Ishmael that the covenant was made with....?? Just changed the ole' Torah, and made it fit to their desires...which is what they have done with much of history! Also interesting that Christianity and Judaism came WAY before Islam...but yet, they say that Muhammad was a prophet from God, the last and final prophet....depending on which sect of Islam you talk to.
Jesus can't be found in a grave anywhere....but Muhammad is somehow on a higher level than Jesus!

Anybody with logical thinking and discerment who hasn't been brain washed can read the Bible then read passages from the Qu'ran and see the truth and what makes sense.

The Bible teaches that ye shall know them by their fruits...well the fruits I see from the Muslims is not what I would call the fruits of peace, love and freedom. It is the fruit of hatred, oppression, and lies! I know who authors that type of stuff, and it isn't God...not the God I believe in!

The sad thing is, the way that these Muslims believe (kill the infidels), it is somewhat concerning to even debate or argue the points....you just don't know what they will do....I mean heaven forbid that you disclaim or take Muhammad off the pedestal.....

Satan can also appear in any form....how do they know it was actually Gabriel that appeared to Muhammad in that cave?

From what I'm reading and researching, and what I see coming is concerning to me. It seems that the battle now, whether people want to admit it or not, is about Extremist Muslims against all of those who don't believe the way that they do. They are infiltrating every country and every sector of the world, and they have an agenda.....they will tell people what they need to tell them to get in..whether it be a country, a college, a business, a corporation, whatever...but once they are in, the bottom line is that no matter where they are, they will only be loyal and true to the Qu'ran and what they believe it teaches.....and from what I get from the Qu'ran, it teaches that those who do not believe what they believe are infidels, and should therefore be destroyed....however they need to do it! They also don't seem to have a problem with all out blatant lying! They just conveniently change facts and history to fit their agenda...amazing! Anybody who doesn't know history, could believe what they teach, I suppose! Ninety percent of Arab nations were Christian before the 7th century! BEFORE the Crusades, the Muslims marched through many Arab countries, and others and took over! They killed thousands and thousands of innocent Christians, women and children in order to establish power. Istanbul, Turkey used to be Constantinope...a Christian city! They took it over and made the Christan Cathedrals and all that was there Muslim Mosques! They did this in many countries.....read the history!

I have nothing against Muslims that are willing to live peacefully wherever they go, and not push their beliefs on people or a country....I'm sure that there are many wonderful Muslim people...but, I do have a big problem with those extremists who feel the need to take over and make Islam the one world religion!

Denise

Denise

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ]Sabre do you really think that AlQaeda did 911?

Renegade, I don't believe I've said that, but, YES, most everyone knows that. The point was that they WERE muslims and they very much enjoyed "sin city". I've read there was quite a bit of "falling on their knees", but not to allah. What do you think about that behavior from fellow muslims? Do you condemn them for that? Do you condemn them for killing 3,000 infidels?

Denise. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/notworthy.gif Amen to you. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/yelclap.gif

[Terri]

A little more on the subject of Las Vegas. I've never been there but I'm sure there are lots of people here who have. As I understand it, there is also a lot of family entertainment there.

There are musical stage shows, good food and lots of things going on that wouldn't be considered "sinful", at least not by Americans, even conservative Americans.

If you live in Great Britain you must have a good idea of what non-Muslim society is like.

For example, I can go shopping here and I don't worry that there will be minders to look at my dress and beat me with sticks if they don't think it's long enough.

I can drive my own car down the street and I will be safe. I will not be stopped by a policeman unless maybe I speed or run a stop sign. If I am stopped, I will be asked for my ID and car registration. I might get a ticket which I can pay within a month or so. The policeman will be very polite and respectful. I won't be thrown in jail for political reasons.

If someone shoplifts in a store they will be taken to jail and charged, they will serve a jail sentence and be released. They won't lose their hand.

Like Great Britain we are a free society. I would never live under Muslim law. I would fight to the death to avoid that.

We saw bin Laden admit his knowledge of the 9/11 attacks on tape. We know that Muslims attacked us. No, only a very few conspiracy theorists think that Muslims had inside help. Nor do we believe Israel was responsible.

We know who and what is to blame.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 15, 2003 -- 11:09 pm)]The point was that they WERE muslims and they very *much enjoyed "sin city". *I've read there was quite a bit of "falling on their knees", but not to allah. *What do you think about that behavior from fellow muslims?
Personally I think its bollox. Why on earth would someone a day before meeting his Lord make a point of doing as many ungodly things as he can? I mean maybe perhaps a month before, but the day before he dies? It sounds too ridicilous. Ive heard the rumours that get spun. "AlQaeda communicates via porn pictures."(why doesnt it just use normal pictures?) "BinLaden was a womaniser in his youth" (actually he was in Afghanistan in his youth) and the other famous one: "Taliban had loads of money" (actually the head of the Taliban Goverment, Mullah Omar, was so poor his place of residence was a mud hut, divided into 2 small rooms)

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Terri @ May 15, 2003 -- 9:36 pm)]Americans have freedom to...

...We have freedom to make bad decisions...
...We are free people with the right to choose..Sometimes that involves wrong choices.

On the other hand, we do not treat women as second class citizens, we do not cut the hands off thieves, we only execute criminals after a lengthy examination of the facts and court trial. We do not conduct Jihad against the world.
From what your saying it seems that freedom is more important in America that quite a few things. In Islam we also have freedom, but it is within some boundries. For instance we are allowed to have sex, but only when married. We are allowed to eat and drink of God's bounty, but not of that which might affect our senses and lead to sinful things. Our ladies are allowed to wear beautiful dresses, but not in front of strange men. Men are allowed to wear handsome clothes, but not allowed the luxury of gold or silk.

As for Womens rights, our ladies have many rights. Our Ladies can run a buisness, earn money, raise a family, get an education and even choose their own husband. How do I know that? Because the Prophet Muhummad's wife did all those things (s.a.w.) But what she did not do was meet strange men in private or wear revealing clothes in public.

Are these rules unfair?

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]We saw bin Laden admit his knowledge of the 9/11 attacks on tape. We know that Muslims attacked us. No, only a very few conspiracy theorists think that Muslims had inside help. Nor do we believe Israel was responsible.


Talib, you also question whether or not Al Queda flew the planes into the World Trade Center.

It was shown on TV many, many times Mohamad Atta on the security cameras at Boston airport the morning of the attack.

Did you not see these same pictures on Sky News in the U.K.? *Or do you only watch Al Jezeera?

The terrorists, (Muslims) had attended flight schools in the United States and is proven by school records. *It does not take years of flying to simply steer an airplane when it is in flight.

You seem to question that Al Queda could find these buildings exactly. *If the geographical coordinates are known, a school child could find any spot on earth with a simple two hundred dollar GPS device.

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]From what your saying it seems that freedom is more important in America that quite a few things.

America was founded on the idea of individual freedom. It was founded on freedom of religion with a strong Christian influence.

Our government does not tell us what religion to follow, what political party to vote for or what we should think.

We have freedom to choose but we have a system of laws . We elect representatives who make our laws. If we do not like a law we exert political pressure on him or her or we vote them out of office and we change the law.

Quote[/b] ]Are these rules unfair?

Yes, in America those rules are unfair. It is for the individual to decide.

And those are not the only rules. We saw the women in Afghanistan being beaten because their dress did not quite cover their ankle or their veil slipped.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 15, 2003 -- 2:08 pm)]
What is the goal of Islam? *If I understand correctly, the
goal is to convert everybody to Muslims...right? *
If they do not convert to Islam, then they are to be
treated differently and unkindly because they do not
believe in the Qu'ran. *Correct?


The Goal of Islam, if there is actually a goal, is to bring people closer to God. The way to get closer to God is to enjoin the good and to avoid the sinful actions. As for treating infidels badly, I have never heard of such a rule before.

> "Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures...

actually this is a more accurate translation from the link that Saber gave me (http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=2 82392):

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

This is actually a command to Muhummad (s.a.w.) It is *commanding him to fight against the people of the scripture if they dont follow their own scripture. It is also commanding him to make them his subjects and then charge them the tax for non-muslims(which as it happens, is lower than the tax for muslims).

[48.29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves;

This is commanding the muslims to protect one another from the non-muslims by being forgiving towards each other, but firm against the non-muslims. It is not teaching people to treat non-muslims badly, It is rather teaching the muslims to be wary of being divided by the conspiracies of non-muslims.

> Muslims believe that the Qu'ran resided and existed in
> heaven with Allah before it was ever revealed to
> Muhammad...is that correct? *How can that be proven??
> How do you KNOW that the Qu'ran is the EXACT words of
> God?

That is a good question Denise. And it has a good answer. The Koran goes over many topics from the way the way the universe was created to the way a baby is developed in the womb and to how the water cycle works in helping us get water. The challenge is given thus, the Koran is God's words, untill someone finds an innacuracy in the Koran. In fact there is even another challenge given by God in the Koran: The Koran is God's words untill someone can write a single sentance as beastiful as one in the Koran. If you can do that, then well youve won the argument. But let me warn you, in 1400 years no one has been able to meet the challenge.


Quote[/b] ]I've read a lot, researched a lot, and find it very interesting! confusion...right? Yet, in Sura 56:15-24 it says the following: "the blessed shall recline on jeweled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. *And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds."

What the heck is that all about? *If we are in heaven with God, there will be no need for that type of reward or pleasure. *There will be no need for maidens that are chaste....being in heaven with God will be the reward. *What exactly do Muslims believe heaven is? *It also seems that it is only the men who are rewarded, and it is always the women who are slaves to the men.....do you believe God only rewards and cherishes the men?

Actually the houris, "dark-eyed" and "chaste as hidden pearls" will be given to both the men and the women. Im sure to you this sounds very ungodly and full of sin, but you must remember, the companionship of the opposite sex is a blessing from God, just like meat and fruits are blessings from God. And God is the most generous and bountiful so that is why he gives us these things, just as a small taste on earth and the full taste in heaven (if we succeed).

> Ok, now when I read something like that, I have a very
> difficult time believing that this comes from a loving and
> merciful God! *The God I love and know loves the little
> children and would never expect them to go blow
> themselves up to kill others. *Do YOU honestly believe this?
> How can this be justified?

Firstly, there has never been any martydom bombings done by children. All Mujahideen are full adults. The boy you are talking of is probably just another one of the thousands of kids in Palestine who want to emulate their Mujahideen heroes. In other words he wants to give his life for the Jihad, to fight back at those who have atacked his parents and driven them out from their homes. And It is an admirable thing to say such a thing.

> One more question....is their a grave for Muhammad
> somewhere? *Are the remains of his body in the grave?

The prophet (s.a.w.) passed away with his head resting in the lap of wife. Like with all prophets, he was buried at the place where he died, which happened to be his home. However, to unearth his body again, is forbidden.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (navyblue @ May 15, 2003 -- 11:58 pm)]Talib, you also question whether or not Al Queda flew the planes into the World Trade Center.

It was shown on TV many, many times Mohamad Atta on the security cameras at Boston airport the morning of the attack.

Did you not see these same pictures on Sky News in the U.K.? *Or do you only watch Al Jezeera?

The terrorists, (Muslims) had attended flight schools in the United States and is proven by school records. *It does not take years of flying to simply steer an airplane when it is in flight.
Im not doubting that muslim freedom fighters lead or took part in the attacks, what I am questioning is AlQaeda involvement. There are enough Islamic groups around the world busy plotting and planning against American interests. AlQaeda, however, was a group based in Afghanistan whose aim was to liberate the country from Soviet occupation. It then became a force to free Afghanistan from the war lords and ended up supporting the Taliban in their promise to build an Islamic government. In fact right up to November 2001 they were battling the Northern War Lords on behalf of the Taliban and actually gained significant grounds even while under US carpet bombardment. This all points to the fact they were concentrated on just that country. Even BinLaden after the attacks denied that his group was involved in it. And the video? An absoloute fake that could have been created by anyone with half an hours knowledge of digital video editing.

> It does not take years of flying to simply steer an airplane
> when it is in flight.

Actually controlling a large comercial 747 aircraft to pass through a narrow target at such a low altitude on even a simple computer game like MS Flight Simulator, is an incredibly difficult task. To get it right twice in such conditions as a hijack is doubly difficult. Even your FBI reckons that they must have used air craft guidance systems

[azwhitewolf]

Quote[/b] ]In fact from what I have heard from talking to americans on the internet, many girls loose their virginity in a bar toilet, drunk, with a man they dont know and are often still under 16. Apparently this occurs so often, girls are being taught how to use condoms in class.

Abortionfacts.com says that every year over a million american women abort their child. I have even heard that this is called "family planning".

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rofl.gif
Barbara Boxer and Patricia Ireland must be having wet dreams tonight. Their whole utopia of liberal politics has been stumped by a single Muslim in Great Britan, who has more morality than the entire Nat'l Organization for Women combined.

And the Democrats are worried that Bush, somehow singlehandedly, "made the USA look dumb" to the world. I wish I could see this kind of comment come through on CNN.

Hey Renegade Talib, I hear ya. Imagine worshipping Allah, except that you can't talk about him in school. You can't pray or bow 5 times towards Mecca. If you hold true to your religious beliefs, you are labled a "bigot". This is what religious people have to deal with here.

Abortion is a disaster. I'm glad you can see that.
Teenage parents - another disaster.
Pre-marital sex - another disaster.
Prostitution - another disaster.
Pornography - another disaster.

We don't get to "worship" our God if it "offends" someone else. We can't pray in public with our kids at sports games. Somebody mis-interprets "seperation of church and state", which originally meant that an organized church can't be an "official" institution, somehow becomes "nothing with God can be involved in politics". I'm sure even you see the folly in that.

Oh, this is so golden. Eat your heart out, Ireland. This is your heaven, thanks for dragging us to hell! http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsdown.gif

[pRIMrose]

It seems that we have a dichotomy here. There is some confusion as to what constitutes "freedom." One man's freedom is another man's sin. Freedom is not ambiguous ~ it is what it is. It is man who qualifies it. There are things even within the bounds of a free society that fall into the realm of "law & order" ~ these things are enforced by "all" the people who make the laws. Laws are made by governments. Not by religions. It is not up to the individual to take retribution on his neighbor because he doesn't agree with his lifestyle or habits. As long as he is living withing the limits constructed by the laws of the land he is free to do as he chooses. When things offend us we go to our elected leaders and try to get them legally dealt with. We have a Constitution and many avenues of recourse in determining what the law should be. No one has the right to dictate what you do as long as you are not harming others. Who is without sin and can throw the first stone. Who on this earth is so holy or omnipotent that they set themselves above the masses and interpret what they "think" or "perceive" are God's wishes? You can only guide people in the direction of morality ~ you cannot force them into moral behavior.

In this country, you are free to believe anything you wish. We have religions that are still in the "horse & buggy" mode and don't believe in electricty. So what? Should they take up arms and attack the rest of us because we don't think as they do? They are free to practice their religion just as we are ~ as long as we respect each other and cause no harm.

People will never agree on religion and should recognize this fact. Like politics ~ it is only part of one's life and in order to live peacefully you must agree to disageee and move on. Religious wars have never solved anything. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twocents.gif

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ]Do you condemn them for killing 3,000 infidels?


Renegade. *I find it usual for muslims not to answer the question above. *I've seen it repeated ad nauseum in interviews. *Once again, we see it here. *You have graciously answered each and every question put to you by each and every person here. *You have glaringly avoided answering this question. *Why?

Quote[/b] ]AlQaeda, however, was a group based in Afghanistan whose aim was to liberate the country from Soviet occupation. It then became a force to free Afghanistan from the war lords and ended up supporting the Taliban in their promise to build an Islamic government. In fact right up to November 2001 they were battling the Northern War Lords on behalf of the Taliban and actually gained significant grounds even while under US carpet bombardment. This all points to the fact they were concentrated on just that country.

So, what you are saying is the alqueda is not smart enough or skilled enough to do the murdering........but regular muslims are? *If alqueda, after years of "studying their craft" are not skilled enough, what background DID those muslims have to fly planes so "expertly" into two buildings?

Quote[/b] ]And the video? An absoloute fake that could have been created by anyone with half an hours knowledge of digital video editing.


Ah yes. *The aljazeera talking points. *Perhaps I've missed it. *What are your news souces BTW? *That would go a long way to explaining some of your stances as well.

Terri~~~Since Renegade lives in Britian, he knows full well what freedom is about. *

I've been to Las Vegas. *We had a blast. *We went to every show we could get tickets for, we watched a circus, we had brunch at scrumptious restaurants, we were mesmerized by the dancing waters at the Bellagio, some took side trips to the Hoover Dam. *It's a wonderful "cha-cha" city. *It has it's seedy side as well, as mohammed and his men frequently chose.

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]Terri~~~Since Renegade lives in Britian, he knows full well what freedom is about.

Talib, how much are you involved with non-Muslim society in Great Britain? I know you are a student. Do you also work? Do you attend a British University? Is most of your time spent with other Muslims or is most of it spent with non-Muslims?

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]Because the Prophet Muhummad's wife did all those things (s.a.w.) But what she did not do was meet strange men in private or wear revealing clothes in public.

Are these rules unfair?

Talib: Muhammad's first wife may have done all of those things, but his second wife was 14 years old....
Oh, and what about "temporary marriages" in the Muslim faith? I suppose that isn't sin either? It seems that as long as the men are doing what they want, and then claiming that it is alright because Allah and Muhammad said it is ok, then there isn't anything wrong with it and it isn't sinful...
Women can't claim rape unless there are 3 or 4 witnesses, and a woman witness isn't believed. How many rapes do you know of that are comitted with witnesses??

So, in your culture it is alright for old men to marry and have sex with young girls, (before they even reach puberty), and that isn't sinful or bad....but, when girls the age of 16 have sex in this country, that is BAD!!!??
The only ones who put a degree on sin, Talib, are humans. In God's eyes..sin is sin is sin! One is just as bad as the other....

There are Muslim country's where women are NOT allowed to work or show their face or be respected....

Bin Laden is a very wealthy man, Talib...but he doesn't live high on the hog. Just because somebody is filthy rich, doesn't mean that they have to live like Saddam Hussein.

By the way, just what would the other Muslim countries have done about Iraq if the U.S. and Britain hadn't stepped in? Would they have all just kept looking the other way? Even Muslims have admitted that Saddam wasn't a true Muslim....he just said whatever he had to on t.v. about Allah in order to gain support from other Muslims...but, he and his sons certainly didn't live as good Muslims...did they!

As for Vegas, or any other "sinful" place...I have really no desire to go there. I would NOT take my 9 year old son there, that is for sure! I wouldn't mind driving through the city at night, just because I would love to see all the beautiful lights in the middle of the desert...but, I can think of better places for a vacation!

As for RULES and BOUNDARIES....I believe that people should have the right to live as they wish, as long as they follow the laws of the country and state. Moral and Spiritual laws are between each individual person and GOD, and it isn't for the government to decide what those moral codes should be. When the government starts dictating how people should live morally, they have then become a dictatorship and not a free society. People have brains, and they can make their mistakes on their own and learn from them without the government stepping in and deciding whether women should be faithful to their husbands or not.....
What one person may view as immoral or moral, others may not...so why should a government decide that? Of course, I realize in Muslim society, Islam and government run hand in hand through the Sharia....one isn't separate from the other.

By the way, you said in a post earlier that there aren't any sects of Islam that are hugely different. From what I understand..there was a huge difference in Iraq between the Sunni and the Shia Muslims. The way I understand it...Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammad was the last and final TRUE prophet. But, the Shia believe that the omams or Sheiks can be prophets and that they are to be treated just as Muhammad would be treated...is that not correct? Also, from what I understand, the Wahhabi Muslims pretty much think that they are the superior Muslims, and are much more strict to the Qu'ran...is this correct? In fact, Al-Wahhab rejected the widespread Sunni practice of idolizing Muslim saints, and called it a species of Shirk....the Muslim sin of worshipping created beings along with Allah. Al-Wahhab declared war on all non-Wahhabi Muslims, and waged a jihad against them. Doesn't sound trivial to me. When one sect of Christians don't agree with another in THIS country...we don't go and kill the ones that don't agree with us. We are still kind and civil to one another....

From everything I read about Muslims, they pretty much believe that ONLY they are right, and anybody who doesn't go along with their beliefs is either treated terribly, or killed. Jews and Christians seem to be at the top of their list.....how is this of God?? God loves ALL of us, Talib...not just the Muslims!

That is the difference though, between Islam and Christianity...we believe that it is up to God to judge mankind, and each individual....not men! Of course, we make our own decisions on who our friends are etc., based on people actions and lifestyles...but final judgment is Gods, and that is between each individual and God! I don't believe I am WORKING my way to heaven either, Talib...as Muslims do. I have accepted Jesus and it was through his blood as the FINAL sacrifice that I have been given mercy and grace to enter heaven. There isn't any amount of work or deeds I could ever do to be perfect enough for God....of course, because I believe God is the Almighty, and because I believe what his son taught while on earth...which was to be kind, generous, help others, try to live as He lived....I am aware that the way in which I live my life is a HUGE statement of what and who I believe in!

As for the 911 terrorists who partied in Vegas...what difference does it make whether they partied there a month before or a day before? They still did it!

Denise

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]As for treating infidels badly, I have never heard of such a rule before.


I'm sure you are familiar with the book of Sura in the Qu'ran...
"The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan" Sura 4:76

Quote[/b] ]The Goal of Islam, if there is actually a goal, is to bring people closer to God

So, are you saying that there isn't a goal of Islam?? How do you bring people closer to God when the message that is coming out from most Muslims is hatred for infidels (those who do not believe in Allah and the teachings of the Qu'ran), and oppression??

Quote[/b] ][48.29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves;

This is commanding the muslims to protect one another from the non-muslims by being forgiving towards each other, but firm against the non-muslims. It is not teaching people to treat non-muslims badly, It is rather teaching the muslims to be wary of being divided by the conspiracies of non-muslims.


Well, I guess one Muslims idea of "firm" against non-Muslims with another Muslims idea of "firm" is a matter of opinion and translation then...right? Your idea of "firm" may mean something totally different from some other Muslims idea of "firm".
There are many recorded accounts of how Muslims have treated non-Muslims through history!

Quote[/b] ]The Koran goes over many topics from the way the way the universe was created to the way a baby is developed in the womb and to how the water cycle works in helping us get water. The challenge is given thus, the Koran is God's words, untill someone finds an innacuracy in the Koran. In fact there is even another challenge given by God in the Koran: The Koran is God's words untill someone can write a single sentance as beastiful as one in the Koran. If you can do that, then well youve won the argument. But let me warn you, in 1400 years no one has been able to meet the challenge

I've read those "so-called" topics in the Qu'ran about the creation of the universe and the forming of a baby in the womb. You know what....?? I found it almost laughable. The Qu'ran compares the baby in the womb to that of a piece of chewing gum....WHAT?? It was very childish and strange to me, Talib. As for the creation of the universe...it was amazing as to how close the Qu'ran came to it's explanation of the creation of the universe to that of Genesis in the Bible. As for a better and more beautiful writing than that of the Qu'ran...the Bible has it beat hands down, and it was written BEFORE the Qu'ran. Muhammad read the Torah many, many times...he was very familiar with the writings of the Torah before his "enlightenment".
Also, it is a simple matter of opinion as to what is more beautiful...the Bible or the Qu'ran....opinons differ all the time, but which is right? Of course, the Muslims will say that the Qu'ran is more perfect...Christians will say that the Bible is more perfect, and Jews will say that the Torah is all that is necessary and perfect....

Quote[/b] ]The prophet (s.a.w.) passed away with his head resting in the lap of wife. Like with all prophets, he was buried at the place where he died, which happened to be his home. However, to unearth his body again, is forbidden.



So what you are saying then, is that Muhammad is still in his grave! Jesus isn't!! He was raised from the dead by God, His Father, and he is alive an in heaven. There is much proof and evidence that Jesus did exist...so why haven't they found his body? They won't....because he isn't dead! You can't say that about Muhammad...can you!

Denise

[Idpatriot]

Oh...one more thing, Talib! There is a verse in Revelation of the Bible that says the following:

"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22: 18-19

Not only do I believe that verse applies to the book of Revelation, but to the Bible itself. The Bible is the inspired Word of God, through the disciples of Christ...at no point did any of them feel that their job was to force people to believe these teachings, or oppress or frighten people to believe this...they taught it, and they lived it! People could see a difference in their lives, and they wanted what they had....
There is a HUGE, fundamental difference in the way that the prophets of the Old and New Testaments lived and taught, and the way in which Muhammad lived and taught. I choose those that were about peace, love, and freedom in Christ....not fear, terror, oppression, and killing!

When a "religion" has to FORCE people to believe their teachings, or frighten and threaten people to get them to believe something....it is no longer a religion...it is then an occult! I simply do not and will never believe that God works through oppression, threats, and terror...that isn't of God!

When a child is looking up to a person who blows themself up to further a cause that is supposedly of God, something is extremely wrong! That is not of God, Talib...no matter how you try to spin it or paint it...it's wrong! I don't know what your definition of a child is, but some of those suicide bombers have been teen agers....that is child in my eyes! I also believe that if Hamas or any of the other terrorist groups thought that young children blowing themselves up would further their cause, they would do it...and it wouldn't surprise me to see them do it in the future. They have no problem with women, pregnant women, and teens doing it....where do they draw the line?

Do you believe in false prophets, Talib? The Bible warns of them.....I believe Muhammad was a false prophet Talib...and he has succeeded in leading millions of people astray and down a dark and frightening path that doesn't lead to 72 virgins.....of course, in the end....we shall all know the truth, one way or another...won't we!

Denise

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]And the video? An absoloute fake that could have been created by anyone with half an hours knowledge of digital video editing.


Ah yes, of course! *That must be the answer. *But you do admit that it was muslims that did the 9/11 attack, don't you?

Well then, what about the muslim propaganda that it was really the massad that was behind the attack?? *Please clarify this for me. * Oh no! *I get it now. *It was a combined operation between the muslims and the massad! *Now it all makes sense.

And nobody ever landed on the moon either! *That was all fake too. *

And of course we still have the Flat Earth Society. *

The amazing thing about this whole discussion with you is that you actually live in a Western democracy. *You have the advantage of seeing what life is like in the U.K. and yet you still champion a society where the majority of people live in poverty and oppression.

You muslims may presently use 21st century tools, but socially, you are all living in the 6th century. *Please go away and come back in another 1500 years or so.

[azwhitewolf]

Well, hold on guys....

We asked this guy to answer a few questions. He has some preconcieved ideas, and we do too. I'm sure he's tired of "only" answering questions, and not getting to ask a few. We have some pretty damning actions that take place in the US that would be as equally offensive as some of the negative things we think about when we think of the Muslim lifestyle. The fact he pointed out abortions was hilarious, and I said so.

This whole name-calling bull$#!t and pointing out obvious differences is going to get us no-where. Renegade didn't cause Sept. 11th, and he's obviously not for rape and I think he's at least trying to be a moral cat. Let's back down to where he's willing to tell us where he's coming from. I'm not for catering to opposition (heh - you all know that!) but he IS the only Muslim willing to be an apologist for his faith, and I for one would like to hear him out.

[Idpatriot]

[/QUOTE]and I for one would like to hear him out.
[QUOTE]

As would I Wolfie! I agree, we don't need to call names or tell Talib to leave...I have lots of questions, it's true! I've never been able to discuss one on one with a Muslim, and I have lots of questions! I also have no problem answering questions, so Talib is more than free to ask his own....and he has!

I agree, Wolfie...the topic of abortion is a good one, and what the rest of the world sees in our handling of it in this country is not something to be proud of....the thing is, the country is split in its support of this act, although I think more and more Americans are leaning more towards Abortion being wrong, and realizing the hypocrisy of it! It is important that Talib understand that not ALL Americans are in support of it. Other countries have their issues as well though, not just the U.S.

There won't be name calling from me though....maybe some critical observations, probably some "calling it like I see it" statements...but I respect Talib for having the courage to be in the forum and discuss with us!

Denise

[Terri]

OK, a few comments from management. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I've removed a post and I want to go over the purpose of this topic once more.

We invited Renegade Talib to tell us about the Muslim religion and his view of the world as a Muslim.

He has been willing to answer our questions politely and it seems only fair to me to give him an opportunity to ask questions and receive polite responses from those willing to respond.

We don't have to arrive at a meeting of the minds. We don't have to convince RT that he is wrong and we are right.

This topic is really for the purpose of gaining knowledge getting a first hand view into the thought process of Muslims. And if RT wants to get a better view of our thought process that's OK with me.

So, I need to ask once more for restraint. I understand that some may not be able to restrain their anger so I have to ask that you post in other topics.

When everyone here feels that the topic has ended it's usefulness I will close it.

Thanks!

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]As would I Wolfie! *I agree, we don't need to call names or tell Talib to leave...

My "leave" remark was tongue in cheek. *Talib is welcome to stay for as long as he can tolerate us. *I hope nobody is suggesting that I was name calling. *I reread my posts and cannot see anywhere I called him a name.

Talib! *You were raised in Britain. *Have you ever lived in Pakistan? *I have not lived there either. *But I have visited Karachi many times and seen the crushing poverty. *You see the life of the average Brit around you. *Would you really trade that for the life of the average Pakastani?

And for the record, I am not for abortion either.

[Terri]

My remarks were a result of having to delete a post and not directed at anyone else in particular, navyblue.

I'm just reminding everyone of our purpose. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[azwhitewolf]

Let me clarify. *Someone called RT a derogitaory word.*

Navy and Id - I respect your opinions, and wouldn't say something like that towards you. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]My remarks were a result of having to delete a post and not directed at anyone else in particular, navyblue

That's cuz you're just such a nice feller AZ! http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

As is our illustrious Den Mom!

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 16, 2003 -- 7:45 am)]"Do you condemn them for killing 3,000 infidels?"

So, what you are saying is the alqueda is not smart enough or skilled enough to do the murdering........but regular muslims are? *If alqueda, after years of "studying their craft" are not skilled enough, what background DID those muslims have to fly planes so "expertly" into two buildings?
Your right and the reason muslims dont answer this question is beacuse the question contains a presupposition. And that presupposition is that BinLaden carried those attacks out, something that I beleive is not true.


Quote[/b] ]So, what you are saying is the alqueda is not smart enough or skilled enough to do the murdering........but regular muslims are? If alqueda, after years of "studying their craft" are not skilled enough, what background DID those muslims have to fly planes so "expertly" into two buildings?

Let me explain to you, the last centuray has seen several Islamic groups brewing around the world. American bombardment of the philipines gave birth to several Islamic groups in that area of the world. Similarly, the Brutal rule of an American puppet in Egypt gave birth to Islamic Mujhiadeen groups in Africa. The same thing occured in Iran's reaction to an American puppet ruler and Palestinian's reaction to Zionist attrocities in the middle east. Even Saddam Hussein was seen as an American puppet and the result was the creation of anti-American and anti-Saddam groups in Iraq which were given shelter in Iran. I have only mentioned a few but any of these hundreds of groups could have carried out 911. In fact I was suprised that it didnt occur earlier.

And with the current American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, there are more groups being formed. Gulbadeen, the Afghan Mujahid who lead the Jihad against the Russians in the 80s has now allied himself with the Taliban in the new Afghan Jihad. And according to what I hear from Iraq, Saddam's Fidayeen have asked forgivness from Allah for their alliance with Saddam Hussein and have now joined the Iraqi Mujhiadeen to fight Americans in Iraq in an upcomming Gureilla war. So as yuo can see there is alot of activity amongst Islamic groups to carry out Jihad. September 11th was merely part of that activity.

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]Your right and the reason muslims dont answer this question is beacuse the question contains a presupposition. And that presupposition is that BinLaden carried those attacks out, something that I beleive is not true.

Renegade, let's assume that 911 was carried out by an unknown group of Muslims. Are you prepared to condemn their actions?

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ]Your right and the reason muslims dont answer this question is beacuse the question contains a presupposition. And that presupposition is that BinLaden carried those attacks out, something that I beleive is not true.

Hogwash. The question contained no "presupposition" at all. It was a straightforward question. "Do you condemn them for killing 3,000 infidels?" You YOURSELF have already admitted that "they" are muslims.

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ]Let me explain to you, the last centuray has seen several Islamic groups brewing around the world. American bombardment of the philipines gave birth to several Islamic groups in that area of the world. Similarly, the Brutal rule of an American puppet in Egypt gave birth to Islamic Mujhiadeen groups in Africa. The same thing occured in Iran's reaction to an American puppet ruler and Palestinian's reaction to Zionist attrocities in the middle east. Even Saddam Hussein was seen as an American puppet and the result was the creation of anti-American and anti-Saddam groups in Iraq which were given shelter in Iran. I have only mentioned a few but any of these hundreds of groups could have carried out 911. In fact I was suprised that it didnt occur earlier.

And with the current American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, there are more groups being formed. Gulbadeen, the Afghan Mujahid who lead the Jihad against the Russians in the 80s has now allied himself with the Taliban in the new Afghan Jihad. And according to what I hear from Iraq, Saddam's Fidayeen have asked forgivness from Allah for their alliance with Saddam Hussein and have now joined the Iraqi Mujhiadeen to fight Americans in Iraq in an upcomming Gureilla war. So as yuo can see there is alot of activity amongst Islamic groups to carry out Jihad. September 11th was merely part of that activity.

This does not answer the question that I asked:

Quote[/b] ]So, what you are saying is the alqueda is not smart enough or skilled enough to do the murdering........but regular muslims are? If alqueda, after years of "studying their craft" are not skilled enough, what background DID those muslims have to fly planes so "expertly" into two buildings?

If alqueda's attending years of flight schools to learn how to fly a plane (not take off or land, mind you) was not enough to make them "experts", then precisely what background did these "other muslims" have for being experts?

[Saber]

Are you a follower of bin laden and alqueda?

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (navyblue @ May 16, 2003 -- 12:06 pm)]But you do admit that it was muslims that did the 9/11 attack, don't you?
Of course.

Quote[/b] ]Well then, what about the muslim propaganda that it was really the massad that was behind the attack?? Please clarify this for me. Oh no! I get it now. It was a combined operation between the muslims and the massad! Now it all makes sense.

I wouldnt be suprised if Mossad helped in the attack. Isrealis in the past have made deals with the Mujahideen who want to attack USA.

Quote[/b] ]The amazing thing about this whole discussion with you is that you actually live in a Western democracy. You have the advantage of seeing what life is like in the U.K. and yet you still champion a society where the majority of people live in poverty and oppression.

Actually the western society I live in champions poverty and oppression. Poverty of spirituality and oppresion of worship. As someone on the board pointed out, people in this society condemn someone who shows signs of worshiping God and they make a hero of someone who curses God (eg: Marlyn Manson).

Look at Isreal which is supposed to be a state made in the name of Jewdaism and Democracy. It is neither. Pigs are farmed in the holy city of Jeruselem and people are only allowed to vote if they are of the Jewish race. That means christian and muslim arabs are kicked out while non religous jews are imported to farm pigs.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 17, 2003 -- 9:38 am)]Are you a follower of bin laden and alqueda?
No, but in my heart I do support their cause.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (navyblue @ May 16, 2003 -- 2:22 pm)]Talib! *You were raised in Britain. *Have you ever lived in Pakistan? *I have not lived there either. *But I have visited Karachi many times and seen the crushing poverty. *You see the life of the average Brit around you. *Would you really trade that for the life of the average Pakastani?
The people in Pakistan are indeed poor and lead very simple lives, but that does not make them bad people. I have been to rich countries like the Arab emirates and even America, but I have not seen the kind of kindness I have seen in countries like Pakistan. I would go to a shop in karachi to buy clothes and the workers will fall over themselves to buy my sisters ice cold drinks. Not because I would buy more but because my sisters felt hot. Even then, Pakistan is not the kind of country that is ideal. The kind of country that is ideal is a country goverened by Shariah as 2001 Afghanistan, not by military dictators such as in Pakistan or in Afghanistan.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 16, 2003 -- 11:27 am)]I simply do not and will never believe that God works through oppression, threats, and terror...that isn't of God!
Thats strange, I thought that christians beleived in Heaven and Hell. But then again I wouldnt be suprised if you have already changed that part of the bible too, just like Paul did.

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ]No, but in my heart I do support their cause.

OK then. *You support binladen and his cause. *That is all I need to know. *People with higher pay grades than I can do what they want. *I would not allow you on these boards any longer to try to rationalize away binladen and his supporters (that would be you) murdering innocent people on a daily basis.

I, for one, have no desire whatsoever to try to "understand". *

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]I would not allow you on these boards any longer to try to rationalize away binladen and his supporters (that would be you) murdering innocent people on a daily basis.

Actually, I don't think that's our purpose. I give you all enough credit not to be rationalized. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Renegade Talib was very clear even in the name of this topic that he is an Islamic Fundamentalist. It was my impression beforehand that this is what Islamic Fundamentalists believe.

What I would still like to know is if there are any Muslims who don't believe as you do, RT?

Are there sects or individuals who don't believe in Jihad or the killing of all infidels?

[Constitutional American]

<me: reading along & not wanting to get involved>

Quote[/b] ]Renegade, let's assume that 911 was carried out by an unknown group of Muslims. *Are you prepared to condemn their actions?
This question has been presented several times in this thread & the original "with Love" post that this thread is a response to.
I was just hoping that it would be answered.
I don't think anyone will be surpized if the answer is no, you don't condemn them. So why not just answer it?
If for no other reason than to stop people from asking it again & again.

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]No, but in my heart I do support their cause.

And I think that this just about says it all for about 90% of the Muslims around the world. Secretly, they support Bin Laden and his cause, and yet they live and work in free countries. They are educated by our colleges, and they earn a living off of our businesses, send that money to Bin Laden and his terrorist groups, live right next door to regular Americans, smile at them every day, and pretend that they are just normal folk. But, in the end, they are loyal only to the Qu'ran and the teachings of Muhammad which teach that Muslims are the only ones who have it right and that all others are infidels! Those Muslims, if told to do so, would gladly rise up against their neighbors and co-workers for the cause of Islam. That is why it is EXTREMELY concerning to me that Arab Muslims are allowed in our country and allowed to do what they do....at some point, we will pay the price...because they absolutely cannot be trusted! Whether people want to admit it or not, what is coming, and what has been happening is Holy War....it isn't about oil or government...it's about Muslims believing that only a country run under the guidelines of the Sharia and the Qu'ran is proper and any other from of government is sinful! It is about their fear of democracy spreading to their part of the world, and their people actually changing their minds about Islam. Muslims in Arab countries are afraid that democracy might just take hold, and that the thumb they have on all their people through the brain washing of Muhammad's Qu'ran, might not have such a strong hold.....

The fact that you are so caught up in Las Vegas and the goings on in that city is a perfect example of the idea that you can't just live the way you want and that you feel is right for you, with out condemning and feeling the need to abolish what is going on in Las Vegas! Living under the Sharia means that people do what the Sharia says, and death to those who don't! It is all about CONTROL...period! It was about control with Muhammad, and it is about control now! It isn't about living they way each individual feels that they should live based on their own beliefs...it's about somebody else forcing them to live the way that THEY want them to, and then saying it is right because Allah says so!

Quote[/b] ]Thats strange, I thought that christians beleived in Heaven and Hell. But then again I wouldnt be suprised if you have already changed that part of the bible too, just like Paul did.

Yep...we do! So what's the point?? Muslims believe in hell as well, right? What proof do you have that Paul changed the Bible? Provide it please! That is your opinion....not a fact! If you can say that Paul changed the Bible, then how can you be so sure that Muhammad didn't make up the Qu'ran?

What does that have to do with living on earth under fear, threats, and terror??

By the way Talib...just what are Muslims in these terrorists groups so afraid of anyway? Why do they HATE Americans so much? They HATE Americans just because they are American....many of the people that they kill have nothing to do with the government or what goes on in government, yet Muslim terrorist will target and kill them as if they did....how can Allah support such a thing as killing innocents just because they are from a country that Muslims hate??
Why are Muslims so afraid of Democracy?? How can Muslims stand by and watch while other Muslims kill their own, and oppress them and torture them??

You see, this is what Muslims did before the Crusades...they killled innocent people just to have power and land. They took over all the Christian areas and made them their own, then claimed that it had always been theirs! I'm continuously amazed at how Muslims just change things to be their own, and conveniently forget how they got it.....

Oh, and while we are on the subject of Hell, and all that is evil....because I believe in Hell, I also believe that Satan is working tirelessly on earth to prevent Christians and God's people from doing what they do and living peacefully! So, what better way for Satan to control people than through a made up religion called Islam with a false prophet named Muhammad who saw an angel "image" named Gabriel. All of the tactics used by Islam are the tools of one named Satan....fear, threats, oppression, hatred, killing, rules that keep people bound up, terror, greed, and the promise of sexual gratification and all those things that men desire when they get to heaven! It has all of the markings of Satans cult, and it is very sad that millions haven't been able to see it for what it is!

There is nothing I, or anybody else on this board can say that will change your mind Talib, because you have been brain washed as well, and the fact that you buy into the ideals of Bin Laden and his ilk, is more proof that you will unfortunately always believe that Americans, Christians, Jews, and anybody else that threatens your beliefs or your way of life are ifidels and not worth the time you spend chatting with us....probably!

I think it is very sad! I think God is saddened by all he sees human kind doing to each other on this earth! It's all about who's right, who is better, and who lives better than another group. It isn't about love, or kindness, or tolerance anymore.....I don't believe God will stand by and watch this destruction much longer!

Denise

[Rover Young]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 17, 2003 -- 10:57 am)]
Quote[/b] ]And I think that this just about says it all for about 90% of the Muslims around the world. Secretly, they support Bin Laden and his cause, and yet they live and work in free countries. They are educated by our colleges, and they earn a living off of our businesses, send that money to Bin Laden and his terrorist groups, live right next door to regular Americans, smile at them every day, and pretend that they are just normal folk. But, in the end, they are loyal only to the Qu'ran and the teachings of Muhammad which teach that Muslims are the only ones who have it right and that all others are infidels! Those Muslims, if told to do so, would gladly rise up against their neighbors and co-workers for the cause of Islam. That is why it is EXTREMELY concerning to me that Arab Muslims are allowed in our country and allowed to do what they do....at some point, we will pay the
....


Aha!
You begin to understand.
So, GWB must to said that target of Iraq war is not "Freedom for Iraqes" or "WMD disarm" -- but...
I'll try to write about it soon.

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]Aha!
You begin to understand.
So, GWB must to said that target of Iraq war is not "Freedom for Iraqes" or "WMD disarm" -- but...
I'll try to write about it soon

HUH?? I'm sorry...I don't understand what you are saying here.

As for me "beginning" to understand....I've been understanding since 9/11, and especially in the last 6 months or so that I have been researching and reading about Islam...yes, I'm understanding quite clearly now!! http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Denise

[Rover Young]

War on Iraq -- first stage of global war. War agains Islam.
And all that politicians said and shell say about it -- is a... smoke barrier?

[Terri]

Hi Rover!

You are coming to the topic late.

Our purpose in this topic is mainly to hear what Renegade Talib has to say about Islam. We know he is a fundamentalist and I think most of us knew what to expect.

We would also like to hear from any "moderate" Muslims.

Some of our members are shocked at RT's responses but our purpose is not to change his mind or for him to change our minds. It's simply to hear his thoughts and also to answer his questions about us as that seems only fair.

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]War on Iraq -- first stage of global war. War agains Islam.
And all that politicians said and shell say about it -- is a... smoke barrier?

If you want to discuss global war that's worthwhile but let's do it in another topic.

[azwhitewolf]

Wow Id. *

Long post, but incredible, and I find myself agreeing with you on almost every point. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif *I don't think I could have said it better myself. *(If I could have, it would have been 3 times longer, of course). *
Quote[/b] ]But then again I wouldnt be suprised if you have already changed that part of the bible too, just like Paul did.
Sorry RT. *That was a cheap shot, and holds no water. *Paul simply wrote letters to churches in different areas to believers on various topics. *Paul didn't change anything - he ended up dying a martyr. *

You misunderstand. *Many Americans don't seek to change the Bible - they seek to ignore it. *Which is fine, because it's not a document that can be changed - though many try, like the US Constitution. *You change either one of those documents, and everything "goes to hell". * God, in the Bible, gives freewill. You can choose to accept his Son, or reject Him. It's pretty simple. You can live a crazy party life, but you have a price to pay. Or you can begin a relationship with God, and He will take care of you. But it's YOUR CHOICE. I don't see that choice given in ANY Muslim country - rich OR poor.

Heaven for you may be 72 virgins. *But what happens after you have sex with em? *Then you have 72 women nagging you, complaining about periods, and each wanting alone time, and wanting you to look at the 3 dresses each they bought you. *

Heaven for Christians is a little different. *We get to co-exist with God, worship Him for the rest of eternity, and we are rewarded according to our works, but SAVED by his grace. *

I'm just curious - to end wars or fights of any kind, you need a truce - but I don't see that in the Qu'ran. *I see "taking over", and "domination", but I don't see anywhere in the Qu'ran where any agreements or peace is called for - only victory for Allah. *Can you explain this?

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 17, 2003 -- 10:16 am)]I would not allow you on these boards any longer to try to rationalize away binladen and his supporters (that would be you) murdering innocent people on a daily basis.
I thought that I had already said I supported Jihad. In fact my whole first post was about that.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Terri @ May 17, 2003 -- 10:32 am)]What I would still like to know is if there are any Muslims who don't believe as you do, RT?

Are there sects or individuals who don't believe in Jihad or the killing of all infidels?
I dont think any muslims support the idea of killing infidels for the sake of killing them. There is however a lot of support to conduct Jihad against Americans as a means to protecting muslims from what is seen as American Imperialism. There is however a difference of opinion on how this Jihad should take place. Some people say that we should not attack what they call civlians and some say it is allowed if the civilians are aiding American imperialism. For instance the Americans killed in Riyadh recently, were definitly civlians, but they were also members of Vinnel Coorp. a U.S. defence company that trains members of the house of Saud to impose the regime's will. And since the House of Saud is an oppresive agent regime of the US, AlQaeda's reasoning is that the Vinnel Coorp. is a valid target. I would agree with them.

[iansays]

RenegadeTalib,

In broad strokes, and in your opinion, what would allow the majority of Muslims to reverse their obvious overwhelming negative opinion of the west? What steps would have to be taken to peacefully co-exist? I've seen people here declare that they will not *ever* co-exist with Muslims (someone even suggested that we shouldn't let them stay in the country?!?), but do you feel the same way about Americans?

Would you agree that suicide bombers are more committed to their God than Christians? After all, you don't see to many Christians blowing themselves (and other people) up for their causes.

Also, assuming you have read all or part of the bible, how do you (or perhaps Muslims in general) compare it to the Qu'ran in terms of it's inconsistencies? The people in this country that believe in the literal interpretation of the bible have their own ways of dealing with them - are there similar methods used in Islam?

Even if you have not read the bible, can you talk about dealing with inconsistencies (if there are any)?

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ]We know he is a fundamentalist and I think most of us knew what to expect.


Well, perhaps most of you did. "Renegade Talib" means absolutely nothing to me. It did not tell me that this is a man who supports "the cause" of murdering American citizens.

I will graciously bow out of any conversation with someone who declines to condemn the murdering of 9/11 and who willfully tells us that he supports binladen.

I don't give a damn why he "feels" the way he does. This man supports the very essence of evil (binladen) and you all want to play nice and psychoanalyze the "why's"?

The liberals wanted to know "what did America do to make them hate us" after 9/11 too. We rightfully ridiculed them.

Denise, right on. :thumbsup:

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]From an Islamic Fundamentalist with Love

The title of the thread speaks for itself. What did you all think an Islamic Fundamentalist stood for if not for the things that RT has discussed?

It's fine for anyone to bow out who doesn't want to hear anymore. I understand that perfectly. I suspect we are nearly at the end of the topic but there are still some good questions being asked. Let's hear the answers.

RT, your responses to my last question were just about what I expected to hear.

As I have thought for some time it looks as though we will have quite a few regimes to change in coming years.

[Idpatriot]

[/QUOTE]Let's hear the answers.
[QUOTE]

I agree! I still haven't seen answers to some of my questions...so let me post them again in a more organized fashion!!

1) How can Muslims claim that others are so sinful, when they condone such practices as "Temporary Marriages"? Temporary Marriages are when Muslim men decide that they want to have sexual relations with a women, or young girl, but because they know it would be against the Qu'ran to do so outside marriage, they marry the woman or girl temporarily, and then conveniently divorce her and end the marriage. Only the man can end the marriage though, not the woman. Many women and young girls are left pregnant and to fend for themselves after the men have had their way with them....
Is this a practice you condone, Talib?

2) How is it that only rape can be claimed and dealt with when it is witnessed by more than one person, and a woman witness does not count? Women are not counted as credible witnesses in anything in Islam, unless there are 2 or 3, or more...correct? How many rapes do you know of that take place with witnesses? So, in essence....rape isn't something that is dealt with in Islam...

3) How do you explain the fact that Jesus is no longer in a grave or dead? He is in heaven with God His Father. How then, can Muhammad be considered a "better" prophet and more credible than Jesus?

4) Since you obviously condone the actions of terrorist groups and the likes of Bin Laden...would YOU strap on a suicide belt and go blow up innocent Americans or anybody that you consider to be the enemy of Islam? If you were called out by your spiritual leader to do so...would YOU do it?

5) Do you agree with M Taha about the quest for Muslims to take over America and make it Islam? Isn't it true that the quest or goal of Islam is to Islamatize the world, no matter what it takes?

I'll look forward to your answers....

Denise

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]As I have thought for some time it looks as though we will have quite a few regimes to change in coming years.


I hope we get on it then Terri...cause the time has come to quit piddly footin around with these people!

As for the idea that Muslims are comitting these terrorist acts because of their fear of Westernization and America killing Muslims and infiltrating THEIR countries....?? I suggest you read the history....the REAL history that isn't tainted with Muslim lies! By the way, how wealthy do you think the Middle Eastern Arab nations with the oil (like Saudi Arabia), would be if it weren't for countries like America and Britain buying that oil and making those people wealthy? How successful do you think ya'll would be over there if it weren't for other western nations buying what you have?

It is the Muslims that have the creed of terror, oppression and being the one and only religion at any cost...not the Christians. But, we won't stand by and watch as Muslims kill and torture and murder innocent people in the name of your so called faith! That is WRONG! It's one thing to practice your faith and live peacefully...it's another to start oppressing and killing people because they don't want to believe what you do....

Denise

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 17, 2003 -- 4:51 pm)]I don't give a damn why he "feels" the way he does. This man supports the very essence of evil (binladen) and you all want to play nice and psychoanalyze the "why's"?
Saber, I bear no ill will against you or any Americans. I beleive that God will judge for himself both you and me. If any of us are bad people, we will be punished or forgiven. The only reason you are seeing a global growth in Islamic movements, both violent and non-violent is because we have to. It is commanded of us to attack those who attack our brethren, his property, his honour or his women. That is the reality, if you dont beleive me that is okay. Im only here because I want to explain to you who we are what Jihad is.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 17, 2003 -- 5:26 pm)]I agree! *I still haven't seen answers to some of my questions...so let me post them again in a more organized fashion!!
Sorry for having not answered all questions Denise. You must remember that there are 9 pages of questions, accusations and insults here.

Quote[/b] ]How can Muslims claim that others are so sinful, when they condone such practices as "Temporary Marriages"?

This was a practise invented by liberal muslims. They were attempting to emmulate the boyfriend/girlfriend scanario practised in western countries by creating a loop-hole in Islamic law. Their loophole, however, collapsed when it was noted to them that divorce is seen as a last resort option in Islam and all marriages must be made with the bride's consent. However, I have heard that there are actually a small number of people who secretly still practise this sinful activity. And of course I dont condone it. A "fundamentalist" muslim would be the last person to condone such a thing.

Quote[/b] ]How is it that only rape can be claimed and dealt with when it is witnessed by more than one person, and a woman witness does not count? Women are not counted as credible witnesses in anything in Islam, unless there are 2 or 3, or more...correct? How many rapes do you know of that take place with witnesses? So, in essence....rape isn't something that is dealt with in Islam...

This is a good question, but unfortunatly I dont know the exact Shariah rule on it. But it is definitly dealt with. Recently a man in northern Nigeria, was convicted of rape by a Shariah court and consequently holed into the earth and stoned till his head fractures killed him.

As for the female witnesses, i beleive that 2 female witnesses count as 1 male witness in Shariah law. Why? Why does Allah allow my wife to take money from me but not allow me to take hers? God knows better than me.

Quote[/b] ]How do you explain the fact that Jesus is no longer in a grave or dead? He is in heaven with God His Father. How then, can Muhammad be considered a "better" prophet and more credible than Jesus?

I have never claimed that Muhummad is better than Jesus (s.a.w.) or vice versa. In fact, by name, the Koran mentions Jesus about 64 times while only mentioning Muhummad once. Jesus has also been honoured, his body and soul were taken back by Allah and he has been promised to return to earth, his arms resting on the shoulders of 2 angels, to kill an evil leader/beast of the infidels and rule the earth in peace and harmony. That is surely a great honour to have. But to say one messenger is better than the other, that is surely something only Allah knows.

Quote[/b] ]Since you obviously condone the actions of terrorist groups and the likes of Bin Laden...would YOU strap on a suicide belt and go blow up innocent Americans or anybody that you consider to be the enemy of Islam? If you were called out by your spiritual leader to do so...would YOU do it?

Maybe, I would try to. It would take alot of guts to do that kind of thing. But right now I would probably be more uselful to the cause for other more logistical tasks.

Quote[/b] ]Do you agree with M Taha about the quest for Muslims to take over America and make it Islam? Isn't it true that the quest or goal of Islam is to Islamatize the world, no matter what it takes?

If you mean forcefully convert the entire world population to Islam then no of course not. Firstly it is forbidden to convert by force and secondly what use will we have with a bunch of 2faced monkeys who are only muslim because we forced them to be muslim? No, a muslim is someone who actually beleives in Allah and worships him with his heart, not someone who just has a muslim name.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (iansays @ May 17, 2003 -- 4:26 pm)]In broad strokes, and in your opinion, what would allow the majority of Muslims to reverse their obvious overwhelming negative opinion of the west? What steps would have to be taken to peacefully co-exist?
Its so simple you wont beleive it. Calling back the U.S. military from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, UAE and all the other muslim countries would alleviate our problems. Why? Because this American military is aiding and abbeting these brutal regimes. This U.S. military is arming the burtual war lords of Afghanistan, protecting the evil House of saud and giving weapons of mass destruction to Isreal.

If you come to Pakistan with me, it will take me you 2 months to go back home. you know why? because every relative of mine will expect me to bring the foreigner home to tea in all thier houses. Thats even when they know that the foreigner is an "evil" american. Imagine what they will be like when America is seen as a friendly country?

Quote[/b] ]Would you agree that suicide bombers are more committed to their God than Christians? After all, you don't see to many Christians blowing themselves (and other people) up for their causes.

The leader of the Church of Bethlehem in the holy lands has called the martydom bombers, "Heroes" because while the so called christians in USA are arming isreal to persecute christians in Palestine, the muslim martydom bombers are giving their lives to free these same people. So yes definitly a martydom bomber has to be much braver than a guy who presses a button and murders a family.

Quote[/b] ]Also, assuming you have read all or part of the bible, how do you (or perhaps Muslims in general) compare it to the Qu'ran in terms of it's inconsistencies?

I did not come here to criticise other people's beleifs. But yes I have read the entire bible from front to back and then once again. And lets just say, it re-affirmed by beleif in Allah because after all, the original bible is from Allah.

[iansays]

I think it's very instructive to note where the malice and animosity comes from on this thread. It's troublesome to see anyone, Muslim, Christian, or any other denomination discuss so openly their hate of another group.

RenegadeTalib, I appreciate your answering these questions, even if the purpose of some of them is to try and make you defend your faith. While I can't abide by either Muslims or Christians killing each other, I can certainly honor that you are taking the high road in response to the questions put to you here.

I also have a great deal of respect for your apparent strength of faith. You obviously believe in your convictions very strongly, and even if your views might conflict with mine, I admire that. It's unfortunate that people can usually only see how much different they are from one another, and rarely see how alike they are.

[Idpatriot]

[/QUOTE]But to say one messenger is better than the other, that is surely something only Allah knows.
Quote[/b] ]

I agree...but, Muslims speak mostly of Muhammad, and call Jesus a prophet, not the son of God, yet...you say it is Jesus that will come back to judge! Hmmmmm

Ian: I don't know who you are referring to about animosity and malice....I have none for Talib, and I also have to give the guy credit for answering our questions...but, to ally himself with a murderer like Bin Laden and condone what they do is not something that should be admired!
Did you read the post from M Taha, Ian? That was filled with malice and animosity, in my opinion!!
As for strong faith....Christians have that as well, but for some reason we are seen differently than Muslims, who have shown their agenda on this board....I wonder why that is?

Talib: We have already begun to pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia, yet there was a terrorist attack in Riyhad just the other day....
The things you list that America should do to bring peace sound simple, Talib...but I truly don't believe it would work. Once the U.S. walked away from Israel, the Arab nations would exterminate all who are there to gain control of it.
I don't condone some of Israel's actions either....they have their own issues, and I'm not blind to that.

You say that your family and friends would serve tea to your American friends even though they consider them enemies...why do they consider them the enemy??

Why does Allah allow my wife to take money from me but not allow me to take hers?Quote[/b] ]

How and why is this a law of Allah? My husband and I share the money...we are as one, and we share it!

his arms resting on the shoulders of 2 angels, to kill an evil leader/beast of the infidels and rule the earth in peace and harmony.Quote[/b] ]

This must be in the Qu'ran, becuase it has been a little misconstrued from what the Bible teaches. Yes, we believe that Jesus will return...but the "beast" can be translated in many ways, I suppose. If you go by the writings of the Old Testament...the beast could very well represent a group or nation...not necessarily a man. From my studies, I believe that this "beast" is anti-Christ (does not believe in Him or His relationship to God), and that He will more than likely come out of the Middle East. Nowhere in the Bible does it say he will be an infidel or come from infidels. "Infidel" is a Muslim term...not Christian, and it isn't in the Bible that I can recall.

Firstly it is forbidden to convert by force and secondly what use will we have with a bunch of 2faced monkeys who are only muslim because we forced them to be muslim? [QUOTE]

But it has been done, Talib. When Muslims conquered areas like Turkey before the Crusades and killed everybody that wouldn't believe in Allah or the Qu'ran....the people realized that unless they believed that way, they would be killed....so obviously, Turkey and the areas that the Muslims conquered are now over 90 percent Muslim....they didn't come to it willingly...it was by force, and fear! The comments of M Taha prove it as well, and I personally believe that many Muslims feel that way. Actions speak louder than words....

I appreciate your candor, and I appreciate your willingness to discuss!

PEACE!

Denise

[doatney]

I have read this entire thread, and I am at a loss at quite what to say. There was so much emotion and so many questions I am not sure where quite to begin.
First, let me say to RenegadeTalib that I would dare say that there isn't a person here who is a Republican and a conservative who believes that abortion, family breakup, no-fault divorce, teen pregnancies, or any of the other social ills are a good thing in our society. Many of us are here to use this board as a forum, because we have dedicated our lives to ending these things in our country, and restoring this country to a society more wholly based on the principles of Christianity. At the same time, we set about this monumental goal with a realization that we must respect that this is a free society and a Constitutional Republic. That means that while we can work within the legal structure to change laws that we think are unjust and immoral, we cannot force people to believe as we do. We can't use the law to change the hearts of the people, only God can do that, and in doing so, as people's hearts change, laws will change, and there will truly be a society of greater justice in America.
I think many of us also need to realize that we owe a certain debt to the Muslim world culturally. It gave us our numeric system (Arabic numerals), it preserved the ancient texts of our earliest Western intellectuals such as Aristotle, Euclid, and Plato during an age of illiteracy in the West. Modern maritime navigation has its roots in the Muslim world. It also gave us the beverage we drink every morning and some of us drink throughout the day to stay awake, coffee. It showed us life can be a little sweeter with a white or brown substance we call sugar. Baghdad was once the intellectual center of the world.
At the same time, Muslims owe a great debt to the West. The West brought things like telephones, modern communications, trade, and the ability to tap the abundant resources of that part of the world. With these things, though, comes other things, they breed freedom. Freedom of thought, freedom of ideas, freedom of speech, freedom of association, and yes, religious freedom..for all faiths, not just one faith. Until the Muslim world accepts these things, it will always lag behind the post-industrial West.
To the rest of you, now you see why I see Islam as a great threat to our way of life. People like Talib not only do not wish to accept freedom for themselves, they wish to deny it to others, whether they realize that or not. The fight against the advance of Islam is a fight of freedom against slavery, and the outcome will determine the fate of Christian civilization.


David

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 18, 2003 -- 12:21 am)]Did you read the post from M Taha, Ian? *That was filled with malice and animosity, in my opinion!!

Who is this M Taha??

Quote[/b] ]Talib: We have already begun to pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia, yet there was a terrorist attack in Riyhad just the other day....

America is pulling troups out of Saudi because they now have troops in Iraq. And they are not pulling all troops out they are just pulling some out to calm tensions.

Quote[/b] ]The things you list that America should do to bring peace sound simple, Talib...but I truly don't believe it would work.

If you dont beleive it will work, then it seems you enjoy the taste of terrorism more than the taste of peace.

Quote[/b] ]the U.S. walked away from Israel, the Arab nations would exterminate all who are there to gain control of it.

We are not like you, we do not "exterminate" people. We have been living peacefully with Jews in Palestine for hundreds of years before the British got involved.

Quote[/b] ]You say that your family and friends would serve tea to your American friends even though they consider them enemies...why do they consider them the enemy??

Because Americans and American allies attack muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Saudi Arabia.


Quote[/b] ]"Infidel" is a Muslim term...not Christian, and it isn't in the Bible that I can recall.

Infidel is an English word describing a non-beleiver. The muslim word for Infidel is Kafir.

Quote[/b] ]But it has been done, Talib. *When Muslims conquered areas like Turkey before the Crusades and killed everybody that wouldn't believe in Allah or the Qu'ran..

Hang on a minute... muslims conquered Turkey? Would you please consult the history books before making wild accusations. Non-muslim Turks conqured much of the arab lands including Iraq. Then the Turks themselves became muslim.

And as for your accusation that we convert people by force, why are there typically 10 to 20 percent non-muslims in every muslim country? Why didnt they become muslim when we supposedly forced them to? In fact why are there 50% christians in Lebanon? Why has the Church of the Nativity, the birth place of Christ, given their support to the Islamic Martydom bombers? Because we never forced them to convert and we respected their religion, thats why.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (doatney @ May 18, 2003 -- 1:27 am)]I think many of us also need to realize that we owe a certain debt to the Muslim world culturally. It gave us our... At the same time, Muslims owe a great debt to the West. The West brought things like ...
This is all very nice and pleasant david, but freedom is not part of the discussion, because freedom is a subjective topic. One man's freedom is another man's prison. Americans for instance want Muslims to give the freedom to systematicly murder muslims in Iraq/Afghanistan/Iran. Unfortunatly for Americans, murder is against our religion and it is our duty to do Jihad against those who murder innocent people. So if you have a problem with our Jihad against murder then that is surely your problem. We will never change on this matter.

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]Who is this M Taha??

I don't know...he directed his post to you though.

Quote[/b] ]America is pulling troups out of Saudi because they now have troops in Iraq. And they are not pulling all troops out they are just pulling some out to calm tensions.


....and why are their troops in Iraq?? Because there is unrest and no peace yet. The Muslim terrorists have decided to have guerilla warfare there now, so obviously, there is a need for troops. If the troops left, and Iraq were left to fend for itself right now, another Saddam Hussein would move in, and then the Arab nations would complain that the U.S. and Britain just went in and caused a quagmire. We can't win with you people...you want our help, but then complain about how we help you. It was Kuwait, (when invaded by Saddam), that wanted our help. Saudi Arabia wanted our help against Saddam, they want our money for the oil to.

Quote[/b] ]If you dont beleive it will work, then it seems you enjoy the taste of terrorism more than the taste of peace.


I don't believe it will work, because of history! I don't believe it will work because of comments like those of M Taha. I don't believe it will work, because I believe that Islam is Satan's cult, and HE doesn't want peace! I don't believe it will work, because Israel is where it is, and the Jews aren't leaving....so, in the end, the Muslim Arab nations will try to push those people to the sea if there isn't a presence of the U.S. and Britain.
As for the actions of Israel...I've been reading a lot lately on how the state of Israel actually came to be...I can't say I agree with how it all came about, but it's history now, and there isn't anything that will change it. The only thing that can change now are the hearts of people....I just don't see that happening, Talib. If anything, it is getting worse!
Americans want peace, contrary to your opinion. We don't go into Muslim countries to kill innocents, although in war, it happens...you know that! The goal of this country is to have peace in the middle east...and unfortunately, they can't seem to achieve that!

Quote[/b] ]We are not like you, we do not "exterminate" people. We have been living peacefully with Jews in Palestine for hundreds of years before the British got involved.


How do we "exterminate" people? Who have we "exterminated"?

Quote[/b] ]Because Americans and American allies attack muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Saudi Arabia.


I suppose this is a question of what came first..the chicken or the egg? We are only going after those who attacked us on 9/11 and those who harbor them. Yes, they are Muslims...but, they attacked and killed 3,000 innocents on our soil on 9/11, and we aren't just going to turn the other cheek anymore! You see Talib, we have the same right that Muslims do..if we are attacked, we have the right to strike back as well.

Quote[/b] ]Infidel is an English word describing a non-beleiver. The muslim word for Infidel is Kafir.


Infidel, Kafir...whatever language you use, it is is a term made popular by Muslims and the likes of Bin Laden.

Quote[/b] ]Hang on a minute... muslims conquered Turkey? Would you please consult the history books before making wild accusations. Non-muslim Turks conqured much of the arab lands including Iraq. Then the Turks themselves became muslim.

And as for your accusation that we convert people by force, why are there typically 10 to 20 percent non-muslims in every muslim country? Why didnt they become muslim when we supposedly forced them to? In fact why are there 50% christians in Lebanon? Why has the Church of the Nativity, the birth place of Christ, given their support to the Islamic Martydom bombers? Because

This is how I understand history...
Islam originated in Arabia in the seventh century. At that time, Egypt, Libya and all of North Africa were Christian and had been for hundreds of years. Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Asia Minor were also Christian. The churches that St.Paul addressed in his letters were located in Asia Minor, which is now Turkey as well as Greece. North of Greece, in a buffer zone between Eastern and Western Europe, were lands that would become Christian domains of the Slavs.

Constantinople (Istanbul) was one of the most important Christian centers as well as Alexandria in Egypt.

So, where did all of the Christians go??

When Muhammad and his Muslim armies came out of the desert, these lands became Muslim. Some were happy to have these new invaders.....but they soon found out what it meant.
There is no question though, that these lands were won by conquest, in obedience to the words of the Qu'ran. Those who were not killed and did not convert, were second class citizens who lived in poverty and humiliation. Becoming a Muslim was the only way to have a decent life, so not surprising, many of the Christians became Muslim.

This is an account of what happened in an Egyptian town....
"Then the Muslims arrived in Nikiou. There was not one single soldier to resist them. They seized the town and slaughtered everyone they met in the street and in the churches - men, women and children, sparing nobody. Then they went to other places, pillaged and killed all the inhabitants they found.....But let us now say no more, for it is impossible to describe the horrors the Muslims committed when they occupied the island of Nikiou."

This is from the writings of an Egyptian woman named Bat Ye'or. The name of the book is "The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam".

I've read much history about the uprising of Islam and the history of it, Talib. I'm still reading...there is much to learn it seems!

As to your comment about the Church of the Nativity supporting the suicide bombers...I'm not aware of that. It gives me a new topic to look into though..I would like to know who these clerics are, and what they truly believe. Just because they are in the Church of the Nativity, doesn't mean that they follow the teachings of Christ. As for the horrors and sorrows that Christians have endured in Jerusalem at the hands of Israeli's...I'm aware of it, and I don't like it. I have many questions regarding the Israeli's actions, and I am saddened by those actions just as I am at those of the suicide bombers and other terrorists who do not wish peace in the region! I will never condone the actions of Israeli's who kill and humiliate anybody, whether it be Palestinian or Christian. But, it doesn't mean we go over and start bombing them or terrorizing them. I'm not anti-Semitic, but I do question some of the actions of the Israeli government since the inception of the state of Israel!

As for the non-Muslims in Muslim countries...I would be curious to know from them how their lives are. I wonder if they are truly free!

Denise

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 18, 2003 -- 10:46 am)]We can't win with you people...you want our help, but then complain about how we help you.
Neither do we want your supposed help nor did we ever ask for it. Your supposed help is a divide and rule policy as Old as Rome itself. You help one dictator against another to kill common muslims. You have armed dictators like Saddam Hussein and the House of Saud and then you systematicly murder innocent people claiming to liberate us from these dictators who you armed. AlQaeda and other Islamic groups are a movement from amongst the common muslims to fight against two enemies: America and the Dictatorial regimes armed by America.

Quote[/b] ]The goal of this country is to have peace in the middle east, How do we "exterminate" people? *Who have we "exterminated"?

LoL. Do you take me for a fool? Americans soul aim is to kill innocent people. We have only to see what the Americans conducted in Vietnam and Afghanistan to see what is the nature of Americans. Americans are neither Christian nor are they peaceful. Look at your culture. In the name of American freedom you curse the bible in rock concerts. In the name of American freedom you systematicly exterminated 2 million innocent people in Vientnam, simply because you beleived that they may have a different ideology from you. In the name of American freedom you arm Jews to lay seige to the Church of nativity and rally them to raid christian refugee camps in Palestine. That is not even mentioning what Americans do to Muslims. The only thing Americans look like are the Anti-Christ.

Quote[/b] ]We are only going after those who attacked us on 9/11 and those who harbor them.

Americans have been attacking other countries, muslim and non-muslim, long before 911.

Quote[/b] ]Those who were not killed and did not convert, were second class citizens who lived in poverty and humiliation.

That is so much bollox. The highest vaziers to the Caliph included Christians and Jews.

Quote[/b] ]Then the Muslims arrived in Nikiou. *There was not one single soldier to resist them. *They seized the town and slaughtered everyone they met in the street and...

Where is this from? Please will you quote the author, publisher and date from where this text comes from.

> "As to your comment about the Church of the Nativity"
> "supporting the suicide bombers...I'm not aware of that."

Priest says Christian holy site destroyed by Isreali's(Archimandr ite Father Atallah Hanna is the Orthodox Church leader of the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem.) (http://www.zccf.org.ae/e_TitleDescriptionPr int.asp?Tid=43)

Also:Church Of The Nativity in Bethlehem ex-communicates Bush, Blair (http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_2003_04_bush _blair_ban.shtml)


Quote[/b] ]As for the non-Muslims in Muslim countries...I would be curious to know from them how their lives are. *I wonder if they are truly free!

Well I can give you the example of Pakistan where we give a guaranteed 10% of Parlimentary/Sentate seats to non-muslims such as Jews and Christians, regardless of whether they acheive in getting 10% of the votes or not. Why? Because we dont want non-muslims to be unrepresented.

[Idpatriot]

[/QUOTE]LoL. Do you take me for a fool? Americans soul aim is to kill innocent people. We have only to see what the Americans conducted in Vietnam and Afghanistan to see what is the nature of Americans. Americans are neither Christian nor are they peaceful. Look at your culture. In the name of American freedom you curse the bible in rock concerts. In the name of American freedom you systematicly exterminated 2 million innocent people in Vientnam, simply because you beleived that they may have a different ideology from you. In the name of American freedom you arm Jews to lay seige to the Church of nativity and rally them to raid christian refugee camps in Palestine. That is not even mentioning what Americans do to Muslims. The only thing Americans look like are the Anti-Christ.
[QUOTE]

The opinions you have that grant you a broad stroke over all Americans is based on what? Movies you see on television perhaps?? Vietnam was a political war, and a fiasco, and most Americans would agree on that. The initial reasons for doing it were noble and it was about Communism and its threat...but it became political and wrong as time went on. When we make mistakes, we can admit it!
In Afghanistan, we were going after terrorists! They were hiding out there, remember! There training camps were there, remember? Bin Laden and his followers were there, remember? They attacked us...remember? We didn't purposefully slaughter innocents...were innocents killed? Unfortunately, yes, that is war! That is why war is bad, and it would be best avoided...unfortunat ely, that is not reality!

When you say that Americans are neither Christian or peaceful, am I to assume based on the actions of Muslims that THEY ARE? I can make the same broad sweeps of Muslims, Talib...but that wouldn't be fair, would it? I believe that there are some Muslims that are peaceful and want peace and understand that America is not the evil Satan....
There are non-Christians in this country, and there are bad things that go on in this country, and there are Christians who do bad things in this country right along with all the rest....but, God will deal with them Talib. It isn't up to a government to inflict God's judgment...He is capable of that Himself! Those people who comit sinful acts and do things that are not Christian, will answer for those actions and pay the consequences, but it is not for me or any other person to take out the revenge on them. But, this nation has the right to defend herself, and if that means that we act premptively to do so, then we will. Which is smarter? Wait to be attacked as on 9/11....or find out where they are and what they are planning and get them before they strike us? We don't mind of other nations or people have different views than us, but if they use those views or ideals to attack us, or to plan to overtake us and change us, then they have crossed the line.
If America is so evil and bad, then why are millions of Muslims from Arab nations flocking here to get an education? Why would they want to live amongst a bunch of evil people?

There are many rock bands and others who publicly criticize the Bible and its teachings, they blasphemy God and Christ. I don't though, so don't lump ME into that group! There are many good, Christian people in this country, and we are trying to be heard, and we are doing what we can to bring about change. But, we don't do it by forcing our faith or beliefs on people, and we don't imprison them or kill them for not believing as we do. It is through prayer, and through example!
God can do the rest just fine!

Just because we arm the Jews, or any other leader of an Arab nation does not mean that we intend for them to use those arms against innocent people or in the wrong way. When we go in with the intentions of helping a nation and then they turn and stab us and others in the back later on, is that then our fault for having good intentions to begin with?

You know, I wish we would just completely pull out of all the Arab nations and have nothing to do with any of you. But, the reality is that it won't happen. The Arab nations want our money that we pay for oil and other resources, and I guess getting our money is just fine with you. The Arab nations need American and western countries to survive monetarily...what good is that oil in the ground, if you have nobody to buy it?
As for the troops and wars that happen over there....it has been going on since the beginning of time pretty much...I don't see it changing now. Even if there were no American troops in the Middle East...there would still be some reason to fight! If there was a huge wall that encased the Israeli's from the Palestinians, they would still find a way to kill each other and fight over something. When you read the Old Testament in the Bible, it is obvious that those tribes have been fighting about things since then. Jacob stole Esau's blessing with the help of his coniving mother. When Ishmael was born, the angel told Hagar that he would be a "wild man and that his hand would be against every man, and every mans hand against him." Hmmm....who are the descendants of Ishmael??

I told you in my post about the Muslims invasion of Turkey and the story of the town in Egypt that it came from the writings in a book by and Egyptian woman named Bat Ye'or. Her book is entitled "The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam".
Another great book is called "Islam Unveiled" by Robert Spencer...a man who has studied Islam for over 20 years.

I will read your links on the Church of the Nativity! Thank you for making it easy for me to access them.

As for America appearing to be anti-Christ...I suppose for outsiders who seen certain things without the big picture, and for those who don't know the millions of good Christians in this country, it would probably appear so. But, I have the same picture of Muslims....yet, I realize that there are many good Muslims who don't buy into the extremist ideals!
I think it is important to put everything in context, and not lump everybody into the same pot!

I have no control over what is percieved of America in other countries...they will see what they want, and believe what they want. Unfortunately, the media plays right into it.

As for what is true and what is real...God will be the judge of that! I do know though, that this nation of America is doing pretty well for herself, is greatly blessed, and is trying to bring peace, despite the crud that works against her.

Denise

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]If America is so evil and bad, then why are millions of Muslims from Arab nations flocking here to get an education? *Why would they want to live amongst a bunch of evil people?


Uh, Denise! *I think M Caca has already answered that question quite clearly for you.

Infiltrate and subvert!

[iansays]

Quote[/b] ]I have no control over what is percieved of America in other countries...they will see what they want, and believe what they want.

Fortunately, you do. Make sure your elected officials know your views. Like this one you mention:


Quote[/b] ]You know, I wish we would just completely pull out of all the Arab nations and have nothing to do with any of you. But, the reality is that it won't happen.


It will happen if enough people tell their leaders that we are desirous of an end to aiding despots and tyrants, and then force Israel live up to the agreements it has made with us and with the Arabs. Renigate Talib was right, Jews and Muslims were doing much better together before we got involved.

[Bill Hodges]

Quote[/b] ]then force Israel live up to the agreements it has made with us and with the Arabs.

The issue is, Israel has no obligation to forfeit any of their rights or lands over to the Arabs. Israel owes the Palestinians as much as the United States owes Mexico of anything.
The Jews should never be coerced into giving away anything that rightfully belongs to Israel.
It was only a few short years ago that Israel offered eighty percent of their lands to the Palestinians. That didn't seem good enough, the Palestinians wanted ALL of Israel's land. This is evidence that the Arabs are the only ones who seem incapable of living up to any agreements.
Israel has all the right in the world to defend it's nation. If the Palestinians or Arabs in general do not appreciate this fact, too bad for the Arabs.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * William (Bill) Douglas Hodges
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *T/O Ranch
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Erick, Oklahoma



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[iansays]

Quote[/b] ]The Jews should never be coerced into giving away anything that rightfully belongs to Israel.


I agree. I think they should honor the commitments their leadership has made. To date, they have not. By the same token, I expect the PA to honor theirs. They have not. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Quote[/b] ]too bad for the Arabs.

Unfortunately, it's too bad for all of us. The longer we politicize the conflict between the Arabs and the Jews, the longer people will continue to die. On both sides. We can be self-righteous as long as we want. As long as we are, people will continue to die.

[iansays]

I'm wandering off topic again. If we want to talk about support (or lack thereof) of Israel, maybe we could do it here. (http://gopusa.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.pl?act=ST; f=3;t=3520)

[Terri]

Have we pretty much finished with the discussion if Islamic Fundamentalism?

Is that why this topic keeps shifting to Israel? I know it's connected but this topic was opened with a specific purpose.

If everyone is finished, we can close the topic and move on to Israel in other threads.

[Bill Hodges]

Quote[/b] ]Quote *
The Jews should never be coerced into giving away anything that rightfully belongs to Israel.



I agree. I think they should honor the commitments their leadership has made. To date, they have not. By the same token, I expect the PA to honor theirs. They have not. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Quote *
too bad for the Arabs.


Unfortunately, it's too bad for all of us. The longer we politicize the conflict between the Arabs and the Jews, the longer people will continue to die. On both sides. We can be self-righteous as long as we want. As long as we are, people will continue to die.



Each time the Jews are coerced into some agreement or concession, the Jews are the ones who suffer more incrementalism due to the breach of agreements by the Palestinians.
It seems to be the Palestinians who are always attempting to politicize the conflict. You never see the Jews strapping bombs to themselves and murdering innocent women, children, and men all in the name of oppression. No, it seems to be the dissident Palestinians doing the murdering while the Jews are doing the defending.
Afterall, it WAS the PLO that caused a massacre in the '72 Olympics, wasn't it? What about all the cowardly suicide bombings...Palestini ans, correct? Yes, politicizing just doesn't get your point across unless you accompany it with a great deal of mass murdering. So far, only the Palestinians are guilty of initiating the murdering and politicizing. By the way, how many innocent Jews were murdered just the other day in that bus bombing?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *William (Bill) Douglas Hodges
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T/O Ranch
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Erick, Oklahoma



http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif

[pRIMrose]

I think I finished a few pages back. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin2.gif Actually, this has been very enlightening and only enforces what I already believe. No matter what the excuses/reasons on either side, I have no intention of living like they do in muslim countries. And make no mistake, I believe with all my being, if the muslims in this country ever became the majority we could kiss all our freedoms and culture goodbye.

The remark about not trying to "convert" others to the muslim faith I find disengenuous ~ in fact down right ludicrous. The muslim faith is by their own definition the one and only religion and other religions/cultures are barely tolerated.

Quote[/b] ]The only reason you are seeing a global growth in Islamic movements, both violent and non-violent is because we have to. It is commanded of us to attack those who attack our brethren, his property, his honour or his women.

This statement just about sent me over the edge. Women are so far down on the ladder this is laughable. This is even more disengenuous. Muslim women are chattel. They are used, abused and treated worse than animals ~ and the poor things don't even seem to realize it. I'm glad, however, that they did at least make the list of things worth fighting for ~ albeit last. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

EOD ~

[USNfromME]

Quote[/b] ]Priest says Christian holy site destroyed by Isreali's(Archimandr ite Father Atallah Hanna is the Orthodox Church leader of the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem.)

Also:Church Of The Nativity in Bethlehem ex-communicates Bush, Blair

See if I have this right. You use the positions of a priest, fired for his support of Palestinian violence, and quotes on a website funded by pro-Palestinian UAE Princes to support your argument? Forgive me if I fail to take this as "gospel." (pun intended)

Greek patriarch fires archmandrite Atallah Hanna over claims of supporting Palestinian terrorism
Palestine, Politics, 7/13/2002

The Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem Arinous 1st on Thursday fired Archamandrite Attallah Hanna from his post as an official spokesman for the Orthodox church in Jerusalem and the holy lands.

In a statement he made following a meeting he held on Thursday with an Israeli official at the headquarters of the Orthodox patriarchy in Jerusalem, the patriarch accused Hanna of "supporting the Palestinian terrorism," noting Hanna's rejection to sign a document condemning the Palestinian operations. Arinos stressed that his church can not ignore any side that practices violence, noting that Hanna supports the "Palestinian violence."

ArabicNews.com (http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/020713/2002071311.html)

[doatney]

I think it is very enlightening how Talib tells us that as a Muslim he does not believe in murder, but will justify murdering innocent people in the name of jihad.

Talib, I don't the Israeli government does to Palestinian people, nor do I encourage support of Israel when they are in the wrong, and I think you'd find that I am not the only American who feels that way.

At the same time, Israeli wrongs do not justify murder or terrorism by the PLO or Hamas or the Taliban or anyone else. With every American you kill, you may think you strike some sort of blow, what you do is encourage Americans to fight to the last man until you are destroyed. Every American you kill will equal thousands upon thousands of Muslim deaths in return. Americans are a fighting people...we aren't aggressive, but when provoked we will fight until those who do the provoking have nothing left with which to provoke us. We love our freedom too much to allow Muslims to destroy it, and with every American killed, Muslim terrorists simply put another nail in the coffin of their dream of Islamic world conquest.


And for the historical record, Anatolia was once Greek and Christian. The Muslim Turks conquered it, and there are now few, if any Christians there. The Muslims either A.) exterminated them or B.) Deported them! Oh, I forgot, genocide is justifyable when it is jihad!

David

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (pRIMrose @ May 18, 2003 -- 3:11 pm)]Women are so far down on the ladder this is laughable. *This is even more disengenuous. *Muslim women are chattel. *They are used, abused and treated worse than animals ~ and the poor things don't even seem to realize it.
Do you realise that Islam is the fastest growing religion in terms of conversions in Canada and USA? But more importantly 4 times as many women as men convert to Islam. That means we must be treating women better than you claim.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (doatney @ May 18, 2003 -- 4:49 pm)]I think it is very enlightening how Talib tells us that as a Muslim he does not believe in murder, but will justify murdering innocent people in the name of jihad.
Hi David, In Islam we are allowed to kill a murderer, that includes American murderers. I hope that clears up the confusion for you.

[doatney]

Ahh..but what about innocent Americans? I think you have demonstrated your willingness to kill the innocent!

David

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Bill Hodges @ May 18, 2003 -- 3:05 pm)]You never see the Jews strapping bombs to themselves and murdering innocent women, children, and men all in the name of oppression.
Your right the Jews are not able to give their life for any cause. Instead what they do is drive their tanks over children in refugee camps. They burn down houses, crops and lively hoods. Isrealis murder innocent palestinian fathers, mothers and children. The Palestinians in response give their life to attack these IDF murderers. It is only an honour to Palestinians that for all the attrocities commited by Jewish invaders the Palestinians have fought with their lives to protect their land even untill now. This is despite the fact that Isrealis use F16s, bombers and tanks while Palestinians use sticks, stones and raw gunpowder.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (doatney @ May 18, 2003 -- 5:01 pm)]Ahh..but what about innocent Americans?
There is such a thing as an innocent American? I doubt it because most Americans give taxes to help pay for weapons of mass destruction. They also demoracticly elected Bush because they wanted a president to kill innocent people.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 18, 2003 -- 12:36 pm)]The opinions you have that grant you a broad stroke over all Americans is based on what? *Movies you see on television perhaps?? *Vietnam was a political war, and a fiasco, and most Americans would agree on that.
Actually most Americans celebrated the slaughtering of innocent people in Vietnam. it was only after they discovered that they were loosing did they think it was a mistake.

Quote[/b] ]In Afghanistan, we were going after terrorists! *They were hiding out there, remember!

Actually terrorists are everywhere, they dont confine themselves to one country. They travel with false identities around the world untill they are given a target that they need to eliminate. Bombing Afghanistan did only two things: give support to AlQaeda in Afghanistan (remember that some of the Riyadh bombers were the first Afghan AlQaeda bombers) and also end up killing alot of innocent people.

Quote[/b] ]We didn't purposefully slaughter innocents!

You use that same excuse every single time and no one beleives you.

Quote[/b] ]If America is so evil and bad, then why are millions of Muslims from Arab nations flocking here to get an education? *Why would they want to live amongst a bunch of evil people?

I have seen the muslims in America, they seem to be just as repulsive as other Americans. But, fortunatly, thanks to muslims realising that Americans are the true enemy, less and less muslims are traveling to America for studies and choosing more peaceful European countries like Switzerland.

Quote[/b] ]There are many good, Christian people in this country

I doubt that they exist.

Quote[/b] ]But, we don't do it by forcing our faith or beliefs on people, and we don't imprison them or kill them for not believing as we do. *It is through prayer, and through example! God can do the rest just fine!

So lets me get this striaght. You bomb other countries, organise systematic murder of innocent foreigners, have throngs of youngsters worshipping the devil, house the largest crime rate in the world with a sexual assault occuring every 2 minutes. And you encourage that because you want people to be free? Do victims have rights in your country or is that also against the American version of "freedom"? To me it looks like everything is upside down in your country. Remember the sign of the beast: He will make the garden look like the fire and the fire look like the garden.

Quote[/b] ]You know, I wish we would just completely pull out of all the Arab nations and have nothing to do with any of you. *But, the reality is that it won't happen. *The Arab nations want our money...

...And you want our oil. That is why Islamic militant groups want to ban the selling of oil to America and Isreal. There should be infact a complete ban of all imports and exports with America. Trade relations with a terrorist nation such as America should never continue. If that means American oil companies like Caltex and Texaco fold over hen so be it.

Quote[/b] ]yet, I realize that there are many good Muslims who don't buy into the extremist ideals!

God willing all muslims will support the Jihad against Americans. All muslims need to realise that America and the dictatorial regimes are our enemies.

[conn.servative]

<I've been trying to stay out of conversation too, but i just can't.>

Quote[/b] ]There is such a thing as an innocent American? I doubt it because most Americans give taxes to help pay for weapons of mass destruction. They also demoracticly elected Bush because they wanted a president to kill innocent people.



This, for me, sums it up. *You have painted a picture of every person in this country as being a Kafir. *An "anti-christ". *A fornicator, adulterer, heathenous beast who can neither keep his pants on his legs, nor finger off the trigger. *Let me explain something to you. *Bush was elected because Bill Clinton spent 8 years giving the rest of the world a basis for this opinion.

Americans don't "give taxes". *For the majority of the country, taxes are taken before we ever receive our paycheck. *For the rest of the country (mostly individuals that are self-employed in one way or another) you are required to pay taxes quarterly, or sometimes yearly, but you are REQUIRED to pay, it is not an option. *And to say we elected Bush to kill innocent people is like saying we elected Clinton becuase of he's a great role model. *We elected Bush because we were tired of Clinton using the White House as a brothel. *Because we were tired of Clinton indiscriminately bombing countries to detract attention from his impeachment. *

You seem intelligent but you're justifaction for the murder of 3,000 people is lacking anything that closely resembles logic. *I gather that your somewhat intelligent, but I'm going to say it again just in case.....

You say that there are no innocent Americans because they pay taxes and vote for Bush. *Keep in mind that taxes are NOTE AN OPTION, WE PAY TAXES OR WE GO TO JAIL. *So you're left with "Americans elected Bush". *Well what about those Americans that did not vote for Bush? *How are they guilty? *How are they to blame? *

You justify your support of the murder of over 3,000 innocent people by saying "they pay taxes" and "they vote" so they're guilty. Don't you understand that while we may elect an official, we can't control what that person does once in office. We tell them whether or not we approve of their actions at the next election. If we still support them, they are re-elected, if not, they lose, but we can't control the decisions that are made.

Yet while you do a wonderfully poor job of justifying your support for murder of innocent people, you also throw accusations at us such as "Bush was elected to kill innocent people". You really think that Americans want innocent people to die. No, not to die, you think we want them to be murdered in cold blood. Is that why the USA leads the world in donations and contributions to charities such as UNICEF etc. If we are all blood-thirsty murderers, where are there American relief efforts accross the globe?

You basically say because we are Americans, we are therefore guilty, "there is such a thing as an innocent American?". So let's use you're own logic in determing what "innocent people" America kills. Since you've agreed that muslims are responsible for 9/11, and since Islam is your preferred governing body, than the religion of Islam is guilty for the murder of 3,000 people on 9/11. Earlier in the post you tried to justify the attacks in Riyadh by al queda as the targets being military related. Later you justify the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon by saying "all Americans are guilty". One question....how can you so easily say "all americans are guilty" and then say the Americans "kill innocent people". What makes ANY muslim innocent since as a fundamentalist you would feel that any true muslim would support jihad, which includes supporting the attacks on 9/11.
You're argument is dripping with hypocrisy. You accuse the US of murdering innocent people, but by your own logic any muslims our government may have killed would not be innocent.

And regarding Vietnam, you should have supported Vietnam, since it was a war fighting communism, and fighting Russia which was seeking to dominate the rest of the world, starting with your neck of the woods. Whether or not the USA did the right thing is a moot point because what's done is done. By your logic we can hold what the Japanese did to us in Pearl Harbor against you. Since Pakistan was involved with Vietnam as much as Afghanistan was involved with the Japanese and Germans.

You see the bottom line is that western civilization allows people to determine whether heaven or hell is their fate, it's called free will, and it's not something that can be witheld by any muslim.

[iansays]

Quote[/b] ]Yes, politicizing just doesn't get your point across unless you accompany it with a great deal of mass murdering. So far, only the Palestinians are guilty of initiating the murdering and politicizing.

At the risk of continuing off topic, here (like I haven't done that before), my point was that neither the PA or the Israel government has lived up to it's side of the bargains they have made. This is our (America's) fault for not keeping Israel honest, and other Arab countries for not making the PA keep its word. The sooner we quit trying place blame and get to work fixing the problem, the sooner people will stop dying.

I will say that, more and more, the conflict there is going to get lost in all the noise we are creating elsewhere. Even if we had an agreement that everybody could live with in Israel & Palestine, there would still be calls on both the Christian side and Muslim side for violence against the other because of the actions of both sides elsewhere.

If we want to discuss Israel, though, we should do it elsewhere. This tread is about Islam, though it's easy to spread out on topics one cares about deeply.

[navyblue]

Talib!

Congratulations! *You can go to your imam and tell him that you have done an excellent job of educating this group of Americans on exactly who you are and what you are about.

I personally, did not have a doubt about you and your cult, but I'm sure a few more Americans are now on to you.

Just curious: If you hate Americans so much, why didn't you engage in real jihad and go to Iraq and tell a few U.S. Marines how much you hate them?

Again I will ask you. *Do you remember King John of Austria and 1571?

You aint seen nuthin yet!

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 18, 2003 -- 5:41 pm)]Well what about those Americans that did not vote for Bush? *How are they guilty? *How are they to blame?
The rest of the americans voted for the democrats who have almost the exactly the same policies as the republicans. You see, Americans only disagree on the method of murder. For example whereas Bush wants to murder people with "shock and awe" carpt bombardment, the Clinton brigrade wants to murder people with a slow combination of no-fly zones, bombing medical factories and poisoning soil with radioactive weapons.

Someone need to put a stop to American attrocties otherwise Americans will continue taking people's lives. no one gives a damn what Americans are doing inside their own country, its what Americans are doing outside that has given the green light to Islamic movements to kill Americans in order to save humanity.

[iansays]

Quote[/b] ]<I've been trying to stay out of conversation too, but i just can't.>


I'm glad you didn't. It didn't even occur to me that Renegade Talib might not know that we don't have a choice in paying taxes.

He might also not know that we don't have a majority vote system in this country and that the person with the most votes doesn't necessarily win because of the way the EC works.

Renegade Talib, he makes some good points here, especially the two above. Are these points commonly known about us in Islam? What difference, if any, would they make?

[iansays]

Renagade Talib, if you were unaware of it, the 'EC' I refered to is the Electoral College, the system by which we elect the President of our country.

It has it's advantages and disadvantages. To read more about it, go here. (http://www.fec.gov/pages/ecmenu2.htm)

[USNfromME]

Quote[/b] ]Your right the Jews are not able to give their life for any cause

Absolutely!! The Jews value life!

In the paraphrased words of Gen. George Patton:

It is not the duty of our soldiers to die for their country. It is the duty for our soldiers to make the other guy die for his!

[iansays]

Quote[/b] ]The rest of the americans voted for the democrats who have almost the exactly the same policies as the republicans

One point that should be made is that less than 1/2 the people in the country voted. Much less.

Still, I suppose you could say that that the people that didn't vote deserve what they get.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 18, 2003 -- 5:41 pm)]If we are all blood-thirsty murderers, where are there American relief efforts accross the globe?
From what I have seen of these so called releif efforts they serve the puropse of a properganderist tool to give the illusion that Americans are somehow "humane". It is similar to british Imperialism. The Brits would first send in church ministers to tell people about God and give out food to the poor, therefore making themselves look good and then when the time was right the British army would kick in and slaughter the population. This way the brits would aruge that they had a "difficult" foreign policy but "hey we sent them food didnt we?", thus giving themselves the image of "helpers."

Quote[/b] ]Since you've agreed that muslims are responsible for 9/11, and since Islam is your preferred governing body, than the religion of Islam is guilty for the murder of 3,000 people on 9/11.

Islam is not guilty for the murder of anyone. What Islam has taught us is that we should fight back when we are attacked. Thousands of Muslim families in Iraq have been systematicly murdered by Americans and therefore it is our duty to attack Americans untill they stop attacking us. If this means Americans get killed we count that as collateral damage. You have to remember that Americans only understand violence. Remember in Vietnam how Americans were so intent on massacaring the population? The Vietnamse physically fought back killing thousands of invaders. The same is the duty of Muslims. There is no blood on our hands, if you want to look for someone to blame for Sept11th then blame the Americans who slaughtered thousands of families in Iraq.

Another important point to remember is that Americans need to be continuously attacked, economicly and physically. We have already won the ideological battle. Muslims already know that they would prefer an Islamic government instead of the American puppet dictators we have now. Muslims also are starting to realise that Americans are a great danger to human lives and family values. Americans not only want to slaughter millions of innocent people *they also want to export American culture such as adultery, street rape, legalised prostitution, date-rape, abortion, satan inspired music, pornography, peadophilia in the clergy and the highest crime rate in the world.

The only way to stop Americans exporting this filth to muslim countries and to stop them killing innocent people is to fight against Americans. Most muslims dont realise this yet but as events continue, god willing, muslims will realise that Americans are indeed the anti-christ.

That is how I and many other muslims who beleive in the fundamentals of faith see things.

[iansays]

Quote[/b] ]so called releif efforts they serve the puropse of a properganderist tool

This is true to a certain extent. Often, when people send money or aid somewhere it is because they are desirous of getting something in return. In the past, it was often converts to a particular religion. More often these days it is a way for governments to show support for one another.

But a great deal of aid that comes from the US had no strings attached. The 'big' money comes from the government, but a lot comes out of the pockets of Americans. Most of what comes out of those pockets goes to its destination free of any reciprocal expectations, save that it go to a good cause.

There are also tens of thousands of dedicated Americans that work all over the world, in all sorts of conditions, helping all sorts of people. I'm sure there are also Muslims that do the same. The overwhelming majority of those people are doing what they do because they feel it is the good and moral thing to do.

Quote[/b] ]if you want to look for someone to blame for Sept11th then blame the Americans who slaughtered thousands of families in Iraq.

I'll assume you are talking about the sanctions (otherwise, the timing doesn't work). I worked hard back in the early and mid '90s to make our leaders see that sanctions only hurt the people. So did a lot of Americans. We did not succeed. I was sad then and now that I could not do more.

[USNfromME]

Quote[/b] ]What makes ANY muslim innocent since as a fundamentalist you would feel that any true muslim would support jihad, which includes supporting the attacks on 9/11.


You must understand that a Muslim is only guilty of murder if he kills another devout Muslim. That's what has Saudi Arabia's undies in a knot.

If you are an Infidel, non-practicing Muslim or anyone else, your status does not reach the high plain of "human" to the Islamic world. Killing you does not qualify as murder any more than killing a roach.

The Koranic cultists make no bones about how they feel. Just read Talib's postings. Anything a Muslim does is justified by the convoluted logic of their book. Anything a non-Muslim does is wrong, evil or anti-Islamic. Therefor, killing 3000 Americans does not cause a ripple of conscience. Americans are non-persons. We are only impediments to the expansion of the Islamic cult and world conquest as they outline in their Koran.

Any behavior not sanctioned by the Islamists is evil. We are adulterers, perverts, criminals and warmongers as though we were collectively a single entity; each guilty by association.

Note the tenor change in Talib's postings. At the start, he was cool, smooth, cooperative and quite agreeable. He "informed" us of our misconceptions regarding Islam. No, the Islamists do not hate the Infidel. No, Islam has no designs on other peoples. No, it is against Islam to force conversion. Then he starts to spout the hidden vitriol about "Americans are ...," Americans don't ... ," Americans aren't worthy to live to , the big GS, America is the Great Satan and must be destroyed.

Quote[/b] ]Someone need to put a stop to American attrocties otherwise Americans will continue taking people's lives. no one gives a damn what Americans are doing inside their own country, its what Americans are doing outside that has given the green light to Islamic movements to kill Americans in order to save humanity.

We, Americans, have been far too understanding and accommodating to these religious cults. They think we are strong now, let 'em see how they like us without the kid gloves. Kick some a$$ and take some names? Naw, waste 'em all and let their Allah sort 'em out.
http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/peepwallA.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/boots.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/boots.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/boots.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggun.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggun.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggun.gif

BTW, does this mean that I'm no longer of the moderate persuasion? * http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (USNfromME @ May 18, 2003 -- 7:28 pm)]Note the tenor change in Talib's postings. At the start, he was cool, smooth, cooperative and quite agreeable. He "informed" us of our misconceptions regarding Islam. No, the Islamists do not hate the Infidel. No, Islam has no designs on other peoples. No, it is against Islam to force conversion. Then he starts to spout the hidden vitriol about "Americans are ...," Americans don't ... ," Americans aren't worthy to live to , the big GS, America is the Great Satan and must be destroyed.
What a false picture you have painted there "USNfromME". I have stated from the begining that Jihad exists and that retaliating against American Imerperialism is obligatery. I dont bear any ill will against Americans nor do I enjoy harming people. However as I have mentioned several times before, the reasons muslims are retaliating against Americans is because it is an obligation.

I also mentioned the growing view that America is the "anti-christ". The reason I mentioned this is because Americans have shown alot of evil. From the export of pornographic material to the slaughtering of people in places like Vietnam and Afghanistan. It all seems to bring many people to the conclusion that Americans could be the "anti-christ."

[MetroSpy]

RenegadeTalib, http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Call me intolerant, narrow-minded, bigoted, or what ever else you want. Your explanation of Islam sounds like a load of garbage to me. *Followers of your faith are honored when they kill themselves and they’re honored when they kill others. G'damn devil worshipers have more respect for human life than you folks. *Islam is Islame! And my friends and family choose not to have anything to do with it.

The editor of the National Review is pondering nuking Mecca >> (http://www.djwudi.com/longletter/archives/2002/03/13/lets_nuke_mecca.php)

.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]The rest of the americans voted for the democrats who have almost the exactly the same policies as the republicans. You see, Americans only disagree on the method of murder.

You continue to exhibit how little you know of the USA. It's no wonder you hate this country so much, you're ignorant of exactly what goes on here. All you know is what you're told. If you truly did visit this country and only came back with the knowledge of pornography, prostitution, and whatever other vices you mentioned, then that's all you were looking for, and you couldn't have found anything positive in this country because you're blinded by your prejudices. You continue to show your ignorance by saying things like "democrats have almost the same policies as republicans", "and Americans GIVE taxes". You look at every person in this country as a rapist, prostitute, criminal, pedophile or some other excrement of society. It's no wonder people like A Conservative have fought your hatred with hatred of their own. Your logic is dripping with hypocrisy, and your basis of argument are quite often based on facts that are simply incorrect. I wonder where your hatred stems from.

Quote[/b] ]Islam is not guilty for the murder of anyone. What Islam has taught us is that we should fight back when we are attacked. Thousands of Muslim families in Iraq have been systematicly murdered by Americans and therefore it is our duty to attack Americans untill they stop attacking us. If this means Americans get killed we count that as collateral damage. You have to remember that Americans only understand violence.

Islam is not guilty for the murder of anyone? Right. It must be quite easy to sleep at night when you have no conscious. Thousands of families in Iraq have been murdered by Americans? And now millions of families in Iraq have been liberated by the man responsible for murdering thousands of Iraqi families.

"Americans only understand violence".

You've continuously made statements regarding America that are incorrect and that are based on prejudices. You think democrats and republicans think alike and you couldn't be further from the truth. You think Americans are only in killing people, you couldn't be further from the truth. You think that prostitution is legal in this country. I can think of only one place where prostitution is legal. You think that because we have a crime rate, we are all criminals. But you don't mention the effect illegal drugs have had on this country. With success comes leisure time. American have enjoyed much leisure time and "recreational" drugs is, in-part, a result of this. There are also areas of great poverty in America, you'll find that drug-use and crime plague those poverished neighborhoods as well. Some people would rather steal than starve, it's up to our legal system to try, judge, and sentence those people. It is neither your right, nor perogative to judge. But back to my point. You continously paint a picture of American that many Americans in this board find offensive, disgusting, and most importantly, just plain wrong. So thank you for telling me to remember what Americans understand. You're so egotistical, that you tell Americans what Americans understand, when you don't even come close to understanding neither America, nor it's people. You said Americans are repulsive. Well you are the one who is repulsive, not because you are muslim, but because your convictions are clearly based on inaccuricies, and yet they are so conceited. If you were my son I'd bury my head in shame.

Quote[/b] ]What a false picture you have painted there "USNfromME". I have stated from the begining that Jihad exists and that retaliating against American Imerperialism is obligatery. I dont bear any ill will against Americans nor do I enjoy harming people.

No USN has hit the nail on the head. The only falsities I found are your descriptions of America. You don't bear any ill will, yet you have no problem with the murder of 3,000 "anti-christs"? USNfromME has not painted any false picture, USN has only stated the truth, using your own words.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 18, 2003 -- 8:42 pm)]You continue to exhibit how little you know of the USA. *It's no wonder you hate this country so much, you're ignorant of exactly what goes on here. *All you know...
Youre trying to symplify retaliation down to "hatred". If I really hated you then I would be coming on this board and screaming expletives at you, but im not. The only reason Im here is because I beleive that victims of wars should at least have the honour of knowing why they were attacked. However, If you want to simplify it down to pure hatred then I think that shows more about you then it does about me.

And I do beleive I know about USA. In fact I tried to understand what Americans think by asking everyone what they saw as their point in life. From what I have seen of Americans, such as the attack on human beings in Vietnam, the Gulf War, the mass bombardment of people living in Afghanistan and the recent invasion of Iraq, I think I can understand Americans. There is a saying amongst Americans: "No taxation without representation". That means that the taxes they pay represent Americans as whole. And these taxes go towards bombing my muslim brothers and sisters in places like Iraq and Palestine. Therefore, to me, Americans represent a force that wants to attack my muslim brethren. That is why we see you as a valid target.

[dewd7]

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Hey talib
You live in britain?
What do you do for a living?
You in school, college perhaps?
Which one?
You get along with the Brits?

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]Infiltrate and subvert!

Exactly...that was my point!!

Denise

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]I dont bear any ill will against Americans nor do I enjoy harming people. However as I have mentioned several times before, the reasons muslims are retaliating against Americans is because it is an obligation.


...ahh...but yet you said you would like to strap on a suicide belt and kill innocents...you said it would take a lot of courage to do such a thing..then you said you felt that Allah is using you in a different way. Hmmm, just what are your TRUE feelings about America?

An obligation to whom? Allah? Do you really believe that God would ask people to kill others? Innocent people?

As for America being the anti-Christ...well, everybody is welcome to their opinion. The scriptures of the anti-Christ are subject to many different opinions and translations. Personally, I feel that there are many anti-Christs on earth right now...anybody who does not believe in Christ or His purpose is anti-Christ. Those kinds of people exist everywhere.

Denise

[Bill Hodges]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Bill Hodges @ May 18, 2003 -- 3:05 pm)
You never see the Jews strapping bombs to themselves and murdering innocent women, children, and men all in the name of oppression.

Your right the Jews are not able to give their life for any cause. Instead what they do is drive their tanks over children in refugee camps.

No, that is called justified retaliation against murderers. You expect not to be hit back after making a sucker punch? That is the purest definition of cowardice. Expect the United States of America to hit back a thousand fold for every sucker punch you give, it is called JUSTICE against cowardice, get used to it. It appears that after all this time that the Jews have been attempting peace, they have finally began to deliver justice themselves.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * William (Bill) Douglas Hodges
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *T/O Ranch
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Erick, Oklahoma



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[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 18, 2003 -- 10:07 pm)]...ahh...but yet you said you would like to strap on a suicide belt and kill innocents...you said it would take a lot of courage to do such a thing..
Indeed it would, but i would not try to kill innocents, and i do not consider Americans as "innocents". Americans are indeed quite the opposite of innocence, regarding their foreign policy of slaughtering entire families in the name of American freedom.

Quote[/b] ]An obligation to whom? Allah? Do you really believe that God would ask people to kill others? Innocent people?

Of course not. Allah only commands us to attack those who have attacked us. eg: Americans.

[Idpatriot]

[/QUOTE]...And you want our oil. That is why Islamic militant groups want to ban the selling of oil to America and Isreal. There should be infact a complete ban of all imports and exports with America. Trade relations with a terrorist nation such as America should never continue. If that means American oil companies like Caltex and Texaco fold over hen so be it.
[QUOTE]

You all seem to enjoy the money and wealth from the oil revenues though. At least the Saudi Royal Family and Saddam Hussein....

Just what would other Muslim countries have done about Saddam? Were any of you angered by the thousands of Muslims he was killing? Is it ok for an Arab to kill Muslims? Saddam wasn't a good Muslim...was he?

Denise

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]Of course not. Allah only commands us to attack those who have attacked us. eg: Americans

...and we have that same right, Talib. Difference is, we believe that there are innocents, and unlike Muslims, we try to avoid them....no matter what you might think.

...and yes, as others have noted, your tone has most definitely changed.

Denise

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 18, 2003 -- 10:31 pm)]You all seem to enjoy the money and wealth from the oil revenues though. *At least the Saudi Royal Family and Saddam Hussein....

Just what would other Muslim countries have done about Saddam? *Were any of you angered by the thousands of Muslims he was killing? *Is it ok for an Arab to kill Muslims? *Saddam wasn't a good Muslim...was he?
I am not from an oil producing nation. And as for Saddam Hussein and the house of Saud, they are distinct enemies of AlQaeda and Islamic groups. That is the main reason why they have killed countless numbers of innocent muslims. In fact we see Saddam and the House of Saud as American puppets because they were indeed armed by the Americans.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 18, 2003 -- 10:35 pm)]Difference is, we believe that there are innocents, and unlike Muslims, we try to avoid them....no matter what you might think.
If you indeed beleive there are innocents in Iraq, why did Americans arm Saddam with weapons of mass destruction in the 80s to kill Kurds? I beleive it is because Americans target innocents.

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]If you indeed beleive there are innocents in Iraq, why did Americans arm Saddam with weapons of mass destruction in the 80s to kill Kurds? I beleive it is because Americans target innocents.

You know, I hear this argument often. When Saddam Hussein was armed it was because we were trying to pick the lesser of two evils, which seems to be the case a lot in the Middle East.
Usama Bin Laden was privy to some of that as well when we helped Afghanistan get rid of the Russians. Did we think that he or Saddam would turn against us...nope!

If a person gets a call from a neighbor who needs help with thugs that have invaded their neighborhood and home, and the friend goes to assist. If that friend offers their weapons and money to help get rid of the thugs, and is successful in doing that, the neighbor in need is thankful. But, if that same neighbor then uses that money and those weapons against the one who came to help, and stabs him in the back....is it the fault of the one who tried to help in the beginning? So, the object would then be...don't help the neighbor in need because the very people you help may turn on you in the future and then you will be blamed for helping them to begin with.

Sounds kind of mixed up and sad to me! I do not believe we arm dictators for the purpose of killing innocents. We arm them with the hopes of them doing what is right and protecting their people from something worse. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case in the Middle East. As much as I'm glad Saddam is gone and won't murder innocent people any longer....I fear that whoever comes into power in Iraq, will eventually turn on us and others as well. I hope and pray not...but it just seems to be the way over there.

Denise

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 18, 2003 -- 11:35 pm)]You know, I hear this argument often. *When Saddam Hussein was armed it was because we were trying to pick the lesser of two evils, which seems to be the case a lot in the Middle East.

The Kurds are evil? Or was it the Iranians?

For instance, Why did you arm Slobadam Milosivik, the House of Saud, Isreal, the War Lords in Afghanistan? Forgive me for being pessimistic but it seems you tend to arm the thugs and only the thugs. How come Bosnia received no arms to defend itself from Slobadam Milosivik but instead received bombardment? How come Iran received no arms to defend itself from Saddam Hussein? How come Palestinians do not receive arms to defend itself from Isreal whereas Isreal receives 6 Billion dollars a year in representational American taxpayer money every year?

I will tell you why. Americans have the policy of arming evil people to kill innocent people and then stepping in afterward to finish off the job with what is known as carpet bombing, a practice in which Americans have slaughtered the population of entire towns. That is why Americans arms dictators. And that is why it is a Muslim's duty to attack Americans.

[Bill Hodges]

Quote[/b] ]I will tell you why. Americans have the policy of arming evil people to kill innocent people

One nation's 'evil people' is another nation's ally. One nation's 'innocent people' is another nation's cowardly murderers.

William (Bill) Douglas Hodges
T/O Ranch
Erick, Oklahoma



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[doatney]

I hope now that not everyone thinks I am crazy when I say that Islam is the greatest threat today to Western civilization. If this thread has taught us anything, it is that the Muslim world can't be trusted.

I wish someone would get this message across to the White House. I would go so far as to say that no Middle Eastern government can be trusted. Not the Saudis. Not the Qataris. Not the whole lot of them.

By the way, I forget who mentioned this, but it was "Don John" of Austria who defeated these heathens at Lepanto in 1571, not "King John" of Austria. Being a traditional Catholic, I do remember these things. I wish someone would have the intestinal fortitude to preach a good Crusade these days. At this rate, I'd be the first in line.

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggun.gifhttp://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/uzi.gif

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (doatney @ May 19, 2003 -- 12:33 am)]I wish someone would get this message across to the White House. I would go so far as to say that no Middle Eastern government can be trusted. Not the Saudis. Not the Qataris. Not the whole lot of them.
I wouldnt be worried about the governments if I were you. These dictatorial regimes are totaly subserviant to America. They would do anything that Bush orders them to. Your problem is not them, your problem is the growth of Jihadis. Muslims have been watching the empire of evil, America, slaughter thousands of families in Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan. Muslims are starting to wake up to the fact that it is their duty as upholders of humanity to attack the evil of Americans. God willing this Jihad to protect the innocent ones will be started soon.

[pRIMrose]

Quote[/b] ]Do you realise that Islam is the fastest growing religion in terms of conversions in Canada and USA? But more importantly 4 times as many women as men convert to Islam. That means we must be treating women better than you claim.

Puleeeeeze RT! Give me some credit. The muslim culture places males in complete control of everything. If there are four times as many women converting to the muslim religion it's because it is a requirement if they are to marry muslim men. And this probably includes all the members of the female's family ~ since we know for a fact that muslims are very adept at intimidating family members. Also, statistically, there are far more women to convert. The men have made themselves an expendable commodity by being in perpetual "war mode" which tends to dminish their numbers considerably. Are you telling me that muslims do not have more than one wife? How about potential wives? Even if they only have one "bonifide" wife, how about all those female "handy helpers" in the household?

WADR RT ~ the muslim religion, to me, is nothing more than a cult. Albeit a very large cult. Unfortunately, many people are drawn to this type of experience ~ even here in the US. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif They usually turn out badly.

[Idpatriot]

[/QUOTE]God willing this Jihad to protect the innocent ones will be started soon.
[QUOTE]

But, you "good" Muslims did nothing to help and protect the innoncents in Iraq that Saddam Hussein was killing. Why is that? You all just sat by and watched, knowing that he was killing and imprisoning thousands of innocent Muslims....you did nothing!

Denise

[Bill Hodges]

Quote[/b] ]Muslims are starting to wake up to the fact that it is their duty as upholders of humanity to attack the evil of Americans.

Where do you come up with this assinine drivel? I thought the Islamic teachings were of peace and tolerance (according to all of your media propaganda), now, the actual truth is being spit from the serpent's mouth when you make such statements, isn't it?

William "Try a little Jihad with this Texan" D. Hodges
T/O Ranch
Erick, Oklahoma



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[iansays]

Quote[/b] ]You all just sat by and watched, knowing that he was killing and imprisoning thousands of innocent Muslims....you did nothing!


In that, Americans and Muslims have a common shame. We did nothing for almost 25 years.

[azwhitewolf]

Quote[/b] ]Quote *
Those who were not killed and did not convert, were second class citizens who lived in poverty and humiliation.

RT:
That is so much bollox. The highest vaziers to the Caliph included Christians and Jews.
If that's so, why does it say in the Qu'ran to tax infidels at a higher rate than believers? *

You can rationalize it how you want to, but don't make the mistake of comparing Islam Fundamentalism to American Freedom. *Islam allows for little, if any, tolerance, ACCORDING to the Qu'ran. Quote[/b] ]The only reason you are seeing a global growth in Islamic movements, both violent and non-violent is because we have to. It is commanded of us to attack those who attack our brethren, his property, his honour or his women.
So it's your job to right the wrongs? Not Allah? *I thought he was wise, and would punish and reward as he sees fit? *After all, if Allah is the greatest, wouldn't it make sense to let the greatest decide in the afterlife? Quote[/b] ] In Islam we are allowed to kill a murderer, that includes American murderers. I hope that clears up the confusion for you.
So again, when does the cycle end? *Where does it speak of reconciliation in the Qu'ran? *

Only after one performs a conversion to the Muslim faith! *Let's be honest on this.
Quote[/b] ]There is such a thing as an innocent American? I doubt it because most Americans give taxes to help pay for weapons of mass destruction. They also demoracticly elected Bush because they wanted a president to kill innocent people.
It's called National Defense, and if Iraqi's were even ALLOWED to earn a living beyond scraping garbage cans for their next meal, they might also be inclined to support protecting THEIR homeland too. *

In one sense, I agree with you. *I'd just as soon let you people fight your own wars, beat the snot out of who you want, convert each other by force... except for one thing. *You desecrate the Holy Land by continually attempting to run the Israelites out of it. *YOUR leaders were offered *ammenities for Peace, including 95% of the land over there. *But that wasn't good enough. *You keep screwing Israel. *If you want to paint yourself as an underdog, I suggest you at least attempt to cover up the fact that you're a bully as well. *

It is YOUR opinion that Bush wants to kill people. *How you get this conclusion is beyond me. *I'm glad you focus your hate on someone who liberated YOUR fellow believers. *GW Bush didn't put Saddam in power - you act as if every problem rested on GW. *
Quote[/b] ]I have seen the muslims in America, they seem to be just as repulsive as other Americans. But, fortunatly, thanks to muslims realising that Americans are the true enemy, less and less muslims are traveling to America for studies ... So when people move here, they lose their "Muslim-ness?" *Perhaps you mean they gain freedom to think for themselves and truly look at both sides. *Maybe they have experience to speak of - like personal perspectives? *

I'm glad to see that you stereotype your fellow "bretheren" as much as you paint a broad stroke of evil on America. *Quote[/b] ]There should be infact a complete ban of all imports and exports with America. Trade relations with a terrorist nation such as America should never continue.
You must work for CNN. *I'm glad you've decided which Americans are innocent (none of them), and so judging, you wish to *completly destory our way of life. *

Terrorism is everything OPPOSITE of Democracy. *Quote[/b] ]no one gives a damn what Americans are doing inside their own country, its what Americans are doing outside that has given the green light to Islamic movements to kill Americans in order to save humanity.
And what is it that Islam is offering as an alternative? *Peace? *You seem to judge us as infidels ACCORDING to what we do in our own country, and then say you give a damn about it. *Which one? *

Here's how I see it:
America oppresses. *
Kill it, it's evil.

Oh, the troops left, we can resume.
Kill it, they have defiled us.

and if nothing else.....

America is Godless.
Kill it, it's evil. *

So from your own admission, the only TRUE redemption value in America is making it INTO a Muslim country OR completely obilterating it, is that correct?
Quote[/b] ]The Brits would first send in church ministers to tell people about God and give out food to the poor, therefore making themselves look good and then when the time was right the British army would kick in and slaughter the population. This way the brits would aruge that they had a "difficult" foreign policy but "hey we sent them food didnt we?", thus giving themselves the image of "helpers."

Wow. That sounds awfully familiar. *I think it was back near Sept. 11th, where Muslim leaders all over the world came out and said "Islam is a peaceful religion", and then quickly ran back into their homes as soon as any questions were asked. *"Hey, but they wanted to clear the record". *Unfortunatley, they didn't condemn 9-11, and the silence was deafening. *
Quote[/b] ]Islam is not guilty for the murder of anyone. What Islam has taught us is that we should fight back when we are attacked.
Amazing. *Well, in that case, America is not guilty for the murder of anyone either. *America taught us that we should fight back when attacked. *

Islam has no provisions to end a war. *Or fight peace. *Again, until the enemy is killed. *
Quote[/b] ]Americans not only want to slaughter millions of innocent people *they also want to export American culture such as adultery, street rape, legalised prostitution, date-rape, abortion, satan inspired music, pornography, peadophilia in the clergy and the highest crime rate in the world.

I'm glad you bring that up. *Adulters don't wish to kill people. *Prostitutes don't wish to kill people. *Rock groups don't wish to kill people. *Pornography doesn't kill people. *

Muslims look to kill people. *"It's your duty", remember?

Actually, the "pedophilia in the clergy" group was not against you when it came time to invade Iraq - let's not forget who supported who! *I didn't see you condemning their support either. * And for a country that's only 200 years old, we sure "started prostitution, adultery, rape...." *
Quote[/b] ]The only way to stop Americans exporting this filth to muslim countries and to stop them killing innocent people is to fight against Americans. Most muslims dont realise this yet but as events continue, god willing, muslims will realise that Americans are indeed the anti-christ.

So basically, to stop evil, you kill people. *Obilterate countries in the name of God? *Kill what you don't understand? *Kill people because they don't look like you? *Your jihad is very undefined in nature, but very clear in conscious. *I'm glad you use such terms like "Allah be praised" and "god-willing" in order to justify murder. *

Does it leave any doubt that you would nuke the US if you could? *

But then USNfromME suggests that you force conversion, you reply: Quote[/b] ]I dont bear any ill will against Americans nor do I enjoy harming people. However as I have mentioned several times before, the reasons muslims are retaliating against Americans is because it is an obligation.

I also mentioned the growing view that America is the "anti-christ".
SO you hate killing, but you'll do it, because you hate that which you do, but sometimes it's good for you? *(Sounds awfully familiar to a Surah I read somewhere). *
Quote[/b] ]There is a saying amongst Americans: "No taxation without representation". That means that the taxes they pay represent Americans as whole. And these taxes go towards bombing my muslim brothers and sisters in places like Iraq and Palestine.
...when you seek to kill Infidels by strapping bombs in the name of Allah. *

Taxes also pay for highways and roads. *They also pay to help the homeless, or runaway abused women. *They also help some people live without a job for a while. *They keep street lights on at night for safety. *They pay for police, and for criminals and victims alike that cannot afford fair representation. They also pay government officials to help keep land (parks) in good condition, and run offices so that America doesn't grossly pollute the environment. *There are a lot of things that taxes do that represent us in a positive light, but all you can see is that what little of our taxes that actually go to Defense of our country is making a bomb. *Put the hate-card on the table, and re-evaluate who is killing more people - America, or Islam Fundamentalists.

And for what - Freedom? - or virgins?

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]You desecrate the Holy Land by continually attempting to run the Israelites out of it

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this! The Muslims have taken control of the Dome of the Rock, which used to be the temple mount for Jews, and was the place where Abraham probably took Isaac when he offered him as a sacrifice to God. The Muslims now have their Mosque on this holy Jewish site, and have destroyed anything that was there that proved it was a Jewish Holy site! They do it wherever they get control...the bulldoze it, and destroy anything that is Jewish or Christian...dependin g on the location! No respect whatsoever for others Holy Sites...but heaven forbid one of their Mosques are destroyed....THEY can destroy them and blame it on Americans, and that is alright...but we better not touch them! But...it's ok for them to destroy our Holy Sites or the Jews Holy sites...because in their minds, if it is destroyed and gone, then they can say that it was theirs all along! Once again...they like to change history that way!

Denise

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]Muslims are starting to wake up to the fact that it is their duty as upholders of humanity to attack the evil of Americans.


Be careful what you wish for. You may get it. And when you pull the tiger's tale, expect to get clawed!

[noPEACEwithoutJUSTICE]

Quote[/b] ]people on both sides are loosing lives.

I think someone has loost his mind!

Quote[/b] ]There is no blood on our hands, if you want to look for someone to blame for Sept11th then blame the Americans who slaughtered thousands of families in Iraq.


Has someone already re-written history, or am I missing something here?

Observation: Note how this discussion started, and where it is now: There were questions Renegade couldn't (or refused to) answer logically and thoughtfully, so we're right back to Jihad and kill the infidels.

Real attractive bunch, the peace-loving Muslims--makes me want to run out and join up! http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]Muslims are starting to wake up to the fact that it is their duty as upholders of humanity to attack the evil of Americans.

The day a muslim fundamentalist is responsible for upholding humanity is the day that pigs fly.

Since you so love to bring up Vietnam. *Tell me, was Pol Pot someone that should have been left alone to continue his murderous ways? *

Quote[/b] ]Americans not only want to slaughter millions of innocent people *they also want to export American culture such as adultery, street rape, legalised prostitution, date-rape, abortion, satan inspired music, pornography, peadophilia in the clergy and the highest crime rate in the world.


Adultery, rape, prostitution, abortion, pornography, peadophilia, crime.....

Adultery- grounds for divorce

Rape- felony crime punishable by 5 or more years in jail

prostitution- illegal

abortion- legal, but hopefully not for long

pornography- legal, but it is restricted to adults, and it isn't forced upon anyone. those who seek something like that can find it.

satan inspired music- one would have to believe in satan to say that satan inspired it. if people in this country don't believe in satan, that is their choice, those who do, choose not to listen to that music. again...CHOICE...fre e will. something muslims try to control and restrict, but it is not yours to give and take.

peadophilia- another felony crime



Did all of these originate in America? *America exports weapons. *America exports Disneyland and McDonald's. *America exports entertainment. *How in the world do we export adultery, rape, prostitution, abortion, pornography, peadophilia, crime? *What American company has travelled the globe looking for the next hot spot for rape? *What American politician has travelled to Pakistan urging your people to practice adultery? *Sure Clinton was guilty of adulterous. *He was also impeached, and you'd be hard pressed to find a person in this forum who would dare to support or defend that man. *Why won't you admit your hate? *You make blanket statements about Americans. *You call us repulsive. *You do not value a human life unless it is muslim, and yet we're the murderous heathens. *You have tried and convicted all americans, but no muslim is guilty of any wrong doing. *I've always defended your right to practice Islam in this country, as much as it sickens me I will continue to do so. *That's the difference between me and you. *I recognize you're right to be an individual, and to live free so long as you don't break any laws. *You only recognize your right to do WHATEVER you must, in the name of Allah. *Kill me, it doesn't matter, I'm not muslim so therefore I'm not human. *If we do something that doesn't abide by YOUR religion, then you feel you have the right to prosecute us. *Let me be another one to break the news to you. *This country will not fail. *We will not live in fear. *We will win.

[Saber]

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/notworthy.gif That's for YOU conn.servative.

[Bill Hodges]

I seem to get attacked a lot when I post facts against idiotic and outrageous remarks that are made by propagandist and trolls. I know, I should soften my punch before I hit them with facts, it's just too fun to turn the fan on them when they spit and add a little of my own to it. However, this approach appears to be getting my hands virtually slapped when I do so and therefore I will simply post this site and let the proverbial chips fall where they may. I hope everyone reads it, it is very interesting and filled with facts.

My Webpage (http://www.anti-jihad.cjb.net/)


William (Bill) Douglas Hodges
T/O Ranch
Erick, Oklahoma



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[Idpatriot]

Excellent posts, conn.servative...way to go!
http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif

Denise http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/usflag22.gif

[Idpatriot]

Excellent link, Bill...thanks for posting that. I saved it to my favorites to read more thoroughly when I have more time.

Just reading the front page though, brought up another question I have had about something with Muslims. Why do so many of our black Americans, and blacks in general, become Muslim when they(Muslims) were some of the first to have black African slaves? They are a very racist group of people....yet, they send clerics into our prisons to convert mostly Black prisoners to Islam.....another contradiction, it seems!?? Another agenda...??

Denise

[conn.servative]

thanks saber-glad to be back on your good side! http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

thanks to you too patriot, and you bill for posting that website. i've added it to my favorites too.

[USNfromME]

Way to go, Bill! Great site! *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 19, 2003 -- 8:15 am)]But, you "good" Muslims did nothing to help and protect the innoncents in Iraq that Saddam Hussein was killing. Why is that? *You all just sat by and watched, knowing that he was killing and imprisoning thousands of innocent Muslims....you did nothing!

Many Muslims did fight against Saddam Hussein. In fact following Gulf War 1 Osama Bin Laden sent thousands of Mujahideen to take control over a Kurdish area of Iraq and battle Saddam's troops. And The Mujahideen in fact held control of this area until Americans started carpet bombing them. As you well know Americans have only the aim to kill innocent people, therefore it was nessesery for Alqaeda Mujahideen to leave in order to save innocent people's lives, just like it was nessesery for the Taliban to leave the cities in Afghanistan.

Admittedly it was only a few thousand Muslims who were fundamentalist enough to fight Saddam Hussein, but the resistance was there. But God willing, I am sure that muslims will start listening to people like Bin Laden more and start attacking Americans and pupppet dictators like Saddam Hussein. In fact I beleive it has already started with 911 and the recent Riyadh/Morocco bombings.

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ] In fact following Gulf War 1 Osama Bin Laden sent thousands of Mujahideen to take control over a Kurdish area of Iraq and battle Saddam's troops. And The Mujahideen in fact held control of this area until Americans started carpet bombing them.


Hmmm...I guess I don't remember this...or the reports of it! Does anybody else remember this, or is just my bad memory?

Denise

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 19, 2003 -- 1:55 pm)]Since you so love to bring up Vietnam. *Tell me, was Pol Pot someone that should have been left alone to continue his murderous ways?
I would say that Americans are people who should not be left alone to continue their murderous ways. And the Americans who are famous for mainly murdering innocent people are the last people needed in a messy civil war.

Quote[/b] ]Adultery- grounds for divorce..Rape- felony crime punishable by 5 or more years in jail...

So what your saying is that these crimes are punishable by law. Then why does America have a sexual offence against a woman taking place every 2 minutes? Why is American pornography ranging from beastality to peadophilia cluttering my inbox simply because I gave my email address on an American website? If prostitution is illegal why is it the norm in New York where girls openly sell their bodies? What it seems is that you may have a few good laws, but the Americans themselves are not good.


Quote[/b] ]America exports weapons. America exports Disneyland and McDonald's. America exports entertainment. How in the world do we export adultery, rape, prostitution, abortion, pornography, peadophilia, crime?

America exports films which romanticise adultery and prostitution, weapons for War Lords who rape innocent women and pornography glorifying peadophilia.


Quote[/b] ]Kill me, it doesn't matter, I'm not muslim so therefore I'm not human.

You misunderstand me. I dont hate you. If I hated all 300 million Americans, I would be so consumed with hate I would not be able to think coherently on a single matter in my daily life. I repeat , I dont hate you. In a way I actually feel sorry for you. It is the reason Ive been on this board trying to explain why muslims are attacking you. Victims of wars should at least have the honour of knowing why they were attacked. And the reasons Muslims are attacking Americans is because it is the Islamic duty of Muslims to retaliate against aggresors. Do you understand???

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]Many Muslims did fight against Saddam Hussein. In fact following Gulf War 1 Osama Bin Laden sent thousands of Mujahideen to take control over a Kurdish area of Iraq and battle Saddam's troops. And The Mujahideen in fact held control of this area until Americans started carpet bombing them

Hold on there Talib! *You just said "following Gulf War 1"
The United States withdrew from Iraq when the cease fire was signed. There was no bombing after the cease fire!

Quote[/b] ] As you well know Americans have only the aim to kill innocent people,

No, we do NOT know any such thing! *Please provide documentation for this outlandish muslim propaganda! *Sorry, nothing from Al Jezeera, other arab news outlets, French, German or Russian sources. * We might consider the international red cross. If you can't provide documentation, don't bother.

[dewd7]

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif


You say:
'As you well know Americans have only the aim to kill innocent people...What it seems is that you may have a few good laws, but the Americans themselves are not good...trying to explain why muslims are attacking you. "

You have repeated this theme many times. You are talking about nearly 300 million people. So you must see that your position is absurd, and finally not defensible?

How about we get real here? Or are you incapable of independant thought? Can you say anything that isn't the
"Party Line"?

Seriously, what do you do? Do you like Britain?
Are you married? Have a girlfriend? a job?
How has the US affected you, personally?
Deep down are you jealous, do you preceive american life as easy, full of luxury ?
Are you able to relate and communicate with the Brits?

You are wasting your life and energy by objectifying "America as Satan".
Germany was led astray by "the Jews" in a similar way.

What do you think about the Jews? Do they have a right to
thier state?

Please, no more mindless judgemental "holier than thou" repetitive babble, lets get real, okay?
Who are you, do you have other conflicting thoughts in your head? Do you wonder *if you dare think differently, God will punish you?

This is a signature of the cult, of brainwashing on the human mind. This is the impression you have left here.
A mindless babbler, incapable of independant thought,
terrified of the idea of having an idea not approved by your cult.

Prove me wrong?

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Idpatriot]

Good post..dewd!! Let's see if he answers you!

Denise

[USNfromME]

Quote[/b] ] Victims of wars should at least have the honour of knowing why they were attacked.

Thanks for the warning, bucko. And back to you. Hitler, Tojo, Kruschev, Saddam and Osama all misunderstood both the will and the tenacity of the Americans. Koranic cultists would be well advised to go back and re-read our history. We are slow to anger but hell on wheels when we get pi$$ed off.

Whether you are willing to admit it or not, you know the US/British led liberation of Iraq was accomplished in a manner that caused the least number of civilian deaths. There were casualties, but there could have been many, many more. Try to picture a region, say in the Middle East, attacked in force, complete with carpet bombing, where we consider everyone to be the sworn enemy of the West.

You funda-mentals, think you are pretty smart with your cowardly homicide bombings and terrorist attacks, but you have yet to deal with anything resembling a US response with vigor and determination. It won't be pretty, I can assure you. Remember, you're not dealing with Bill Clinton anymore.

Try to picture OUR Special Forces delivering crippling blows to your infrastructure, your bases, your homes. They're there now. Watching. Waiting. Learning your routines. And don't think hiding in England will save your sorry rectal oriface. If we don't consider you worthy of attention, perhaps the SAS will.

Quote[/b] ]Admittedly it was only a few thousand Muslims who were fundamentalist enough to fight Saddam Hussein,

There are more than a BILLION of you Muslims. And you could only muster "a few thousand" willing to fight? Sounds like you've been sucking overtime on a hookah full of wacky weed! You've misrepesented yourself here. I would have thought, from your posts, that there were at least half a billion red-eyed, slobbering targets willing to meet allah (dhe).

For a few thousand, we might as well pack up the troops and send the Girl Scouts out to facilitate your rendesvous with the virgins.

[Bill Hodges]

Quote[/b] ]Hitler, Tojo, Kruschev, Saddam and Osama all misunderstood both the will and the tenacity of the Americans. Koranic cultists would be well advised to go back and re-read our history. We are slow to anger but hell on wheels when we get pi$$ed off.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!


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[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (dewd7 @ May 19, 2003 -- 6:36 pm)]You have repeated this theme many times. You are talking about nearly 300 million people. So you must see that your position is absurd, and finally not defensible?
I beleive that ideas are more powerful than 300 million people who beleive that curising God is an expression of freedom of speech.

> Do you like Britain?
its ok.

> Are you married? Have a girlfriend? a job?

no, no, yes

> How has the US affected you, personally?

What do u mean Personally?

> Deep down are you jealous, do you preceive american life
> as easy, full of luxury ?

Okay ill admit something here. Ive got a green card and i can legally live and work in America. Do I envy American Life? How can I? Its almost identicle to life in Britain.

> Are you able to relate and communicate with the Brits?

of course, i was born and raised here.

Quote[/b] ]You are wasting your life and energy by objectifying "America as Satan". Germany was led astray by "the Jews" in a similar way.

Unlike Nazi germany I do not have any intention of exterminating an entire populace. Nor I support such an idea.


Quote[/b] ]What do you think about the Jews? Do they have a right to thier state?

A right to the occupation of Palestine? No.

Quote[/b] ]Who are you, do you have other conflicting thoughts in your head? Do you wonder if you dare think differently, God will punish you?

Think differently from who? I think differently from most people, even most muslims.

Quote[/b] ] This is a signature of the cult, of brainwashing of...

Prove me wrong? http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

I have no interest in tackling your semantic laden rhetoric. I am only interested in explaining to you why muslims are attacking Americans.

[iansays]

Quote[/b] ]I seem to get attacked a lot when I post facts against idiotic and outrageous remarks that are made by propagandist and trolls. I know, I should soften my punch before I hit them with facts,

Yeah. Attacked. Here, of all places.

Granted, I have only had to be subjected to a few examples of your 'facts,' but for the most part, you seem to be intent on riding roughshod over people with rhetoric and abuse. I hope and expect that I don't have enough history with you to be in the majority in having that opinion, and can only hope you and the people that know you here can help me improve my impression of you over time.

Perhaps instead of insulting the people who disagree with you, and dismissing their arguments because of your bias on certain subjects, you might consider engaging in some honest discourse.

A certain degree of give and take may be required. I'm willing to listen to you. Are you willing to listen to me?

On topic: RenegadeTalib, in what ways do you consider the UK different from America, if at all? Do we all fall into the same boat because of Fundamental Islam's perceptions of us (the US and the UK) being allies?

Also, have any of the comments here in the public forum had any affect on your opinion of Americans? Have you been able to learn anything about us that you did not know? Do you think that we have gotten an honest appraisal of what it means to be a Fundamentalist Muslim, and do you think you have gotten a realistic look at how Americans feel about Muslims, fundamentalist or not?

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ]Also, have any of the comments here in the public forum had any affect on your opinion of Americans? Have you been able to learn anything about us that you did not know? Do you think that we have gotten an honest appraisal of what it means to be a Fundamentalist Muslim, and do you think you have gotten a realistic look at how Americans feel about Muslims, fundamentalist or not?


"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn". I don't give a care what his opinion is, whether he's learned anything, what it means to be a fundamentalist muslim (lower case without respect) or whether he's got a realistic look at Americans' feeeeeeeeeeellllllll lllinggggggssssss. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

This supporter of murder has no qualms whatsoever about bombing out your brains until they are scattered on the headboard of your bed (along with your family) and you care if he ahhhhhhhh "understands"? Oh, feel the compassion.

Sheesh.

[pRIMrose]

Quote[/b] ]A right to the occupation of Palestine?
At the risk of sounding <span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>REDUNDANT</span> here ~ There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as &quot;Palestine&quot; (http://www.masada2000.org/)

Quote[/b] ] The term &quot;Palestine&quot; came from the name that the conquering Roman Empire gave the ancient Land of Israel in an attempt to obliterate and de-legitimize the Jewish presence in the Holy Land.

Which was originally called Judea ~ the southern kingdom of ancient Israel.

Revisionist factoids don't replace thousands of years of history. Sorry ~ the math just doesn't add up. The &quot;Jihad&quot; religion only began 1400 years ago. The Jews have been around for thousands of years. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif Everything else is rhetoric.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]I would say that Americans are people who should not be left alone to continue their murderous ways. And the Americans who are famous for mainly murdering innocent people are the last people needed in a messy civil war.


Quote[/b] ]You misunderstand me. I dont hate you. If I hated all 300 million Americans, I would be so consumed with hate I would not be able to think coherently on a single matter in my daily life. I repeat , I dont hate you. In a way I actually feel sorry for you.

So you refuse to call Pol Pot what he is, instead the Americans are the murderers. *Not the dictator killing 2 million of his own people. *Not the vietcong who hid behind women and children and who refused to wear uniforms so we wouldn't know friend from foe. *You accuse the Americans. *Yet you're not filled with hate? *What are you filled with then if you're blind to the facts, and can just accuse 300 million people of murder? *Bullox? *Is that what you call it?

Quote[/b] ]So what your saying is that these crimes are punishable by law. Then why does America have a sexual offence against a woman taking place every 2 minutes? Why is American pornography ranging from beastality to peadophilia cluttering my inbox simply because I gave my email address on an American website? If prostitution is illegal why is it the norm in New York where girls openly sell their bodies?

Sexual offense every 2 minutes? *Please provide your source for this number. *Let me explain something to you. *Just because there are rapists in America does not mean America is exporting rape. *Just because there are murderers in America doesn't not make every American a murderer. *I keep trying to explain this to you, but you don't get it, hence I feel sorry for you. *Just because some of your fellow muslims strap bombs on their chests and intentionally kill little kids on a school bus, does not mean that all muslims are child killers. *If you want to make judgements upon a whole society, we can go back and forth all day. *Why is that a man in Egypt was arrested for having 23 wives. *Apparently, 4 is the maximum, he had 19 too many. *So according to Islam adultery isn't considered adultery unless it's more than 4 women? *So because you're &quot;allowed&quot; to practice adultery under your religion, that makes it okay for you throw the same charges at us? *You're a hypocrite plain and simple. *

Beastiality is illegal, and I would venture to guess that the pornography involving animals being sent to you was filmed in another country. *Why is it being sent to you? *Money. *The company knows there are people out there that like that sort of thing, and the more people they send it to, the higher their chances of receiving a response are. *Beastiality is disgusting, and I think you'll find that the vast majority of the country would agree with me. *But regardless, every american with an email address receives that crap, and probably about 8 out of 10 deletes those emails without even a second look. *But what you fail to understand is that those companies have to send that stuff to as many people as possible in order to receive as much business as possible, they can't sit and wait for people to come to them, that's not good business. *So while we may not like it, it's free enterprise and we're being forced to deal with it. *Not forced to watch it, you can simply delete it, but forced to deal with it nonetheless. *You assume that the porno is welcomed by Americans, it is not. *

And regardless of what you say, prostitution, thanks to Rudy Giuliani, is not the norm in New York. *You live in Britain, stop trying to tell Americans how it is in America, just because you've visited a time or two. *It DOES NOT make you an expert, it does not even make you educated, it makes you a tourist, nothing more! *Prostitution is legal in other countries around the world, what makes us bad people? *Why is there prostitution? *Because it's human nature to want to have sex. *It feels good. * Bottom line. **So there is a demand for it, thus there is a market for it. *Drugs are illegal, but there is a market for drugs too, that doesn't mean all americans are drug addicts. * *There are countries in Europe where prostitution and drugs like heroin are legal, in fact in Britain smoking marijuana, in public i believe, carries no bigger penalty than a small fine. *Does that mean YOU as a briton are exporting marijuana? *

Quote[/b] ]America exports films which romanticise adultery and prostitution, weapons for War Lords who rape innocent women and pornography glorifying peadophilia.


War Lords like the Taliban? *What child pornography is being LEGALLY exported from the United States??!!!!

Films are just that films. *Make believe. *Pretend. *You don't have to watch them if you don't want. *If you don't support that stuff, then you have a voice in your pocket. *Don't spend your money on it. *If enough people stop spending money on films like that, then the companies will take notice and films will change, but just because that's not something YOU want to watch, doesn't mean you have the right to keep ME from watching it. *Nothing is FORCED upon you, unlike your ideal government which would FORCE your beliefs upon me. *You just don't get it do you?

Quote[/b] ]You misunderstand me. I dont hate you. If I hated all 300 million Americans, I would be so consumed with hate I would not be able to think coherently on a single matter in my daily life. I repeat , I dont hate you. In a way I actually feel sorry for you.

First of all, keep your pity, it's unwanted and unnecessary.

Second of all, you don't hate each individual american. *You hate America and everything it stands for. *We can see that each time you speak of America and Americans because you never have ANYTHING good to say. *How about the fact that while you support 9/11 and support the murder of innocent people, you can STILL come to work and live here? *Regardless of how &quot;repulsive&quot; (your words) you find Americans, if things got bad in Britain, and you needed a job, you could come here and join our workforce and be able to support yourself and family, you may not be welcome, but you'd be here legally nonetheless. *Now your religion/ideal governmening body, on the other hand, would oppress, prosecute, and even murder anyone who does not follow YOUR belief system, regardless of whether they desire peace or not. *

How about the fact that I will defend your right to practice your racist, oppressive, intolerant, abusive, disgusting religion. *Even though your religion provides a clause for murdering innocent people. *You'll never understand. *I stand for individual freedom. *You stand for total and absolute worship to a deity. *I don't believe in YOUR GOD. *So don't try to make me follow YOUR LAWS. *You don't have to believe in my God, and I won't try to make you live according to the Holy Bible. *I stand for your right to live by the word of Allah, but because I don't live by the word of Allah, you feel you have the right attack me. *If I was a fundamentalist, living in NYC and working in the World Trade Center on 9/11 would you care? *Would you then say the attacks were wrong? *Probably not, you'd probably say I died in the name of Allah, right? *Well what makes you think you have the right to determine when I die? *

Also....72 Virgins? *One's not enough? *But we're fornicators and adulterers? *But in heavan you're rewarded with 72 virgins? *SEVENTY FRIGGIN TWO!!!!!! *Maybe that's because Allah knew you'd have all that pent up sexual frustration since you're only allowed FOUR wives on earth. *And Americans are repulsive? *Again, although I find your religion repulsive, you still have the right to come here and practice it as long as you abide the law set forth by our government, not YOUR God.

Quote[/b] ]As you well know Americans have only the aim to kill innocent people

Then why didn't we throw everything in our arsenal at Baghdad and the rest of Iraq. *Why would we spend literally $25,000 dollars on EACH BOMB to equip it with a laser guided system? *Check out this article... JDAM stands for Joint Direct Attack Munition, the satellite-guided bomb that has been a favorite U.S. weapon in the war in Afghanistan. Military planners love the JDAM for its pinpoint accuracy and relatively low cost of less than $25,000 each. (http://www.globalsecurity.o rg/org/news/2002/020715-iraq1.htm)

If our only goal was to kill innocent people, we'd drop nuclear bombs, &quot;dumb&quot; bombs, and any other bomb we had on the entire country. *We wouldn't waste money making these bombs accurate to within a meter, we'd simply spend that extra $25,000 per bomb on more bombs! *We'd use our nuclear arsenal. *In fact, we wouldn't endanger the lives of 250,000 troops, we'd simply send in the Air Force and Navy to drop as many bombs and fire as many missiles as possible until everyone was dead. *We also wouldn't take prisoners, you also wouldn't see thousands of Iraqis in Dearborn, *Michigan (America) cheering the liberation of Iraq. *They'd be fearful that there families were going to be murdered by the very people they're living amongst. *Don't YOU understand???

[conn.servative]

Allow me to turn the tables for a second, I'll use your logic so maybe you can understand this...

As a briton, your country supports our war against terrorism, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Therefore as a briton, you aided (through your tax dollars, and your vote, regardless of which way you voted) the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, and the war against terror. Therefore, by your own logic, YOU YOURSELF ARE A MURDEROUS BRITON, GUILTY OF MURDERING INNOCENT PEOPLE, and....GUILTY OF BEING A PUPPET FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Therefore, YOUR FELLOW FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS WOULD BE JUSTIFIED IN ATTACKING YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE A VALID TARGET. YOU YOURSELF WHO SYMPATHIZES WITH BIN LADEN, WHO PROBABLY RECRUITS FOR AL-QUEDA, ARE IN FACT A VALID TARGET OF ANY MUSLIM TERRORIST FIGHTING THE JIHAD.

What say you to that?

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 20, 2003 -- 4:13 pm)]Allow me to turn the tables for a second, I'll use your logic so maybe you can understand this...

As a briton, your country supports our war against terrorism, Afghanistan, and Iraq. *Therefore as a briton, you aided (through your tax dollars, and your vote, regardless of which way you voted) the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, and the war against terror. *Therefore, by your own logic, YOU YOURSELF ARE A MURDEROUS BRITON, GUILTY OF MURDERING INNOCENT PEOPLE, and....GUILTY OF BEING A PUPPET FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. *Therefore, YOUR FELLOW FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS WOULD BE JUSTIFIED IN ATTACKING YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE A VALID TARGET. *YOU YOURSELF WHO SYMPATHIZES WITH BIN LADEN, WHO PROBABLY RECRUITS FOR AL-QUEDA, ARE IN FACT A VALID TARGET OF ANY MUSLIM TERRORIST FIGHTING THE JIHAD. *

What say you to that?
Britain is definitly a valid target and attacking Britain would naturally lead to colateral damage. That includes me, children and other innocent people who have nothing to do with the Anglo-American policy of killing innocent people. Colateral damange, after all is only to be expected in a war against the west.

[Klaymore]

Quote[/b] (RenegadeTalib @ May 20, 2003 -- 5:43 pm)]Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 20, 2003 -- 4:13 pm)]Allow me to turn the tables for a second, I'll use your logic so maybe you can understand this...

As a briton, your country supports our war against terrorism, Afghanistan, and Iraq. *Therefore as a briton, you aided (through your tax dollars, and your vote, regardless of which way you voted) the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, and the war against terror. *Therefore, by your own logic, YOU YOURSELF ARE A MURDEROUS BRITON, GUILTY OF MURDERING INNOCENT PEOPLE, and....GUILTY OF BEING A PUPPET FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. *Therefore, YOUR FELLOW FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS WOULD BE JUSTIFIED IN ATTACKING YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE A VALID TARGET. *YOU YOURSELF WHO SYMPATHIZES WITH BIN LADEN, WHO PROBABLY RECRUITS FOR AL-QUEDA, ARE IN FACT A VALID TARGET OF ANY MUSLIM TERRORIST FIGHTING THE JIHAD. *

What say you to that?
Britain is definitly a valid target and attacking Britain would naturally lead to colateral damage. That includes me, children and other innocent people who have nothing to do with the Anglo-American policy of killing innocent people. Colateral damange, after all is only to be expected in a war against the west.
Quote[/b] ]Britain is definitly a valid target and attacking Britain would naturally lead to colateral damage. That includes me, children and other innocent people who have nothing to do with the Anglo-American policy of killing innocent people. Colateral damange, after all is only to be expected in a war against the west.

You are full of hate. I read your posts and responses. If you hate the west that much leave it. You can continue to hate us as a people we will respect that as your right but don't pull an Arafat on us.

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]Britain is definitly a valid target and attacking Britain would naturally lead to colateral damage. That includes me, children and other innocent people who have nothing to do with the Anglo-American policy of killing innocent people. Colateral damange, after all is only to be expected in a war against the west.

Well then, you won't mind the collateral damage that is inevitably coming to Muslims when the West strikes back.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]Britain is definitly a valid target and attacking Britain would naturally lead to colateral damage. That includes me, children and other innocent people who have nothing to do with the Anglo-American policy

Thank you for saying what I had already said, too bad you couldn't respond with anything of substance.



Quote[/b] ]Anglo-American policy of killing innocent people

You make this argument continuously. *It was refuted in my prior post, which you conveniently ignored. *

I'll post it again....

Quote[/b] ]Then why didn't we throw everything in our arsenal at Baghdad and the rest of Iraq. *Why would we spend literally $25,000 dollars on EACH BOMB to equip it with a laser guided system? *Check out this article... JDAM stands for Joint Direct Attack Munition, the satellite-guided bomb that has been a favorite U.S. weapon in the war in Afghanistan. Military planners love the JDAM for its pinpoint accuracy and relatively low cost of less than $25,000 each.

If our only goal was to kill innocent people, we'd drop nuclear bombs, &quot;dumb&quot; bombs, and any other bomb we had on the entire country. *We wouldn't waste money making these bombs accurate to within a meter, we'd simply spend that extra $25,000 per bomb on more bombs! *We'd use our nuclear arsenal. *In fact, we wouldn't endanger the lives of 250,000 troops, we'd simply send in the Air Force and Navy to drop as many bombs and fire as many missiles as possible until everyone was dead. *We also wouldn't take prisoners, you also wouldn't see thousands of Iraqis in Dearborn, *Michigan (America) cheering the liberation of Iraq. *They'd be fearful that there families were going to be murdered by the very people they're living amongst. *Don't YOU understand???


You say because our soldiers shot some people in Iraq at a rally that we aim to kill innocent people. *If our aim was to kill innocent people, exactly what would have stopped those soldiers from killing the entire crowd, not just 15? *There hundreds or thousands of Iraqis there. *Do you doubt that someone who fights a war by targeting civilians, and by staying out of uniform, would not hide behind women and children? *Do you doubt that your fellow muslim fundamentalists would hide in a crowd of people (knowing full well that it was a peaceful rally) with the intent to lure the soldiers into firing back and helping YOUR cause? *Again, you saw what our military did to the Iraqi military, you think they couldn't take out that entire crowd if that's what they truly desired!?!!! *Are you that blinded by your hatred for America? *The way terrorists fight wars is by hiding, and striking out where there's no chance for counter-attack, small scale strategic attacks that may take out a few, or many, but that bolster support for your cause. *This is EXACTLY what happened in Iraq when those innocent civilians got shot. *Some fundamentalists hid in a crowd, fired at the soldiers from under cover of civilians, and when fired back upon, of course some innocent people died. * *

Your duplicity is downright enraging. *You charge the US with a policy of killing innocent people, but then state that NOBODY here is innocent, well if nobody here is innocent, then how is any Iraqi or muslim innocent? *Did they not pay taxes to their government? *The only reason they are innocent is because they were ruled by brutal dictators, and that includes the Taliban. *You admit that you yourself are a valid target. *Not collateral damage. *You speak of collateral damage and valid targets as if they are one in the same. *You say all americans are valid targets, then you say that innocent people die and that is simply collateral damage. *You agree that you are a valid target of your own allies in this war, yet you see nothing wrong with that. *Basically your point comes down to this.....

&quot;When a muslim attacks a civilian, the civilian is a valid target. * If the civilian happens to be a muslim fundamentalist, then he/she is simply collateral damage, even though the civilian WAS THE TARGET, not a military site. *But when the American military attacks another military target, and innocent civilians die, then Americans have a policy aimed at killing innocent people.&quot; *

You intentionally kill innocent people and say &quot;they weren't innocent&quot;. *We mistakenly kill innocent people and you say we have only one aim, killing innocent people. *And your religion allows you to do that, even though the people who are being tried according to your laws, do not live under your law. *Ever hear of jurisdiction? *

If our goal was to kill innocent people, we wouldn't have fought Saddam, who murdered innocent people.

If our goal was to kill innocent people, we wouldn't have fought Hitler.

If our goal was to kill innocent people, we wouldn't have fought Pol Pot.

If our goal was to kill innocent people, we would have begged the UN to stay out of Somalia.

If our goal was to kill innocent people, we'd stop playing around with Cuba and turn that island into the new Vieques.

Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam, Aidid, Stalin...there have been plenty of murderous dictators that America has fought. If our goal was to murder innocent people, wouldn't it make more sense to aid those who have the same goal and cause as we do?

If our goal was to kill innocent people, Afghanistan and Iraq would be referred to in the past tense. *The countries simply wouldn't exist anymore. *We have the weapons and we have the means to deliver the weapons, but we don't have the one thing necessary.....the desire. *

I've finally figured it out....

You've lost touch with sanity.

The only thing you've accomplished in this forum is strengthening our resolve, so for that, I thank you.

[azwhitewolf]

Well, I can see that now TWO lists of questions has been completely ignored. And I'm not going for a third. Apparently, we aren't interested in talking about the Qu'ran, or the origins of Allah, or what used to be Northern Israel.

You see, RT, I'm the one to blame. I asked for this forum to hear your side, to perhaps understand Islam, and how jihad works, and REALLY learn your faith. I bothered to actually READ your book of Faith, and looked to have specific logical and non-threatening answers for the questions I have.

I begged people to not insult you. I even insulted one poster who called you names, whose post was then removed by the moderator.

But I'm done with this thread. You are not interested in talking about the Qu'ran, your faith, Allah, Mohammed, or anything. You are more interested in blaming America for 9-11, blaming America for the fact that sexual immorality exists in this world - heck, even blaming America for your ****ing EMAIL content.

It sure has been nice - hearing your &quot;perspective on America&quot; instead of your &quot;perspective on Islam&quot;, which is why I bothered to give you an opportunity to share your views.

Thanks for helping me out in NO WAY WHATSOEVER understand your religion. Your faith. Your Allah. I was all ears. But you don't want to share that. You just want to argue that America sucks. Well, you and a billion of your fellow Muslim buddies. Go ahead. But I'm finished with listening to you justify your hate, bigotry and desire to see a nation fall under your special-interest rules for the sake of YOU pleasing your Allah.

Jesus rose from the dead. Mohammed is still underground. Mohammed didn't die for your sins. Mohammed didn't perform miracles. Mohammed didn't claim he was god - and then back it up. Mohammed wasn't even mentioned in early scripture, or prophesized about before his life began.

But the beauty of it is: You still have free-will to go to hell in America - if you want to. I guess the fundamental difference is that you want Allah to be brought to people who don't want it. What good is a God that people force on you? America is where we GO to SEARCH and find the things we are looking for, and might I mention, with a HIGH probability of finding it.

Well, good luck. I hope Allah sees that you are smart, articulate, and brilliant enough to spare as a suicide-bomber. Allah apparently calls you to die for him.

My God calls me to live for Him.

[Terri]

I believe we have followed this topic to it's conclusion.

I plan to close the topic unless someone gives me good reason to leave it open.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 20, 2003 -- 10:28 am)]So you refuse to call Pol Pot what he is, instead the Americans are the murderers. *Not the dictator killing 2 million of his own people. Not the vietcong who hid behind women and children and who refused to wear uniforms so we wouldn't know friend from foe. *You accuse the Americans. *
Pol Pot may well have been a tin pot dictator, however he held not even a flame to the Americans. Ignoring the exagerated but expected American propergander about Pol Pot, he did not kill 2 million people. Rather, if you remember, Americans were still high on the fact that they had killed 180,000 civlians in Japan. On the &quot;high&quot; they received from this they developed the largest non-nuclear device in existance, called the daisy cutter bomb. To continue the American policy of total slaughter, they then systematicly, murdered 2 million people by dropping these bombs on towns and villages.

Quote[/b] ]Sexual offense every 2 minutes? Please provide your source for this number.

I can not remember the exact sources for &quot;sexual assaults&quot; but according to Bucknell University of Pensilvanya, &quot;there is a rape every sixty minutes in the United States&quot; and &quot;one of four girls are sexually abused before the age of eighteen.&quot; The details are discussed here (http://www.departments.buck nell.edu/WRC/Sexual%20Assault%20I nfo/myths%20and%20facts% 20about%20sexual%20a ssault.htm)

Quote[/b] ]in Britain smoking marijuana, in public i believe, carries no bigger penalty than a small fine. Does that mean YOU as a briton are exporting marijuana?

I beleive that we are. We did after all invent heroin chic.

Quote[/b] ]War Lords like the Taliban?

The Taliban are anti-war lord. After all, the whole reason the student militia (taliban) spent so much time fighting wars in Afghanistan was to get rid of the War Lords.

Quote[/b] ]Second of all, you don't hate each individual american. You hate America and everything it stands for.

Not really. there are actually some good aspects to American culture that i admire, such as the spirit of Entrepreneurship and the willingness to do things differently. But then if you look at any country they all have their good and bad points. I wouldnt mind if America was like Switzerland or China, keeping themselves to themselves, and respecting the fact that they are guests when visiting other nations. Unfortunatly the reality is different, Americans have a policy of killing innocent people, and muslims have to deal with this reality.


&gt; your religion provides a clause for murdering innocent people

There is no clause in islam allowing the murder of innocent people, in fact there are Islamic laws to attack murderers such as Americans.

&gt; because I don't live by the word of Allah, you feel you have
&gt; the right attack me

*sigh* they are attacking you because you killed alot of innocent muslims in Iraq through sanctions and bombings. I hope you would understand that one day.

&gt;Then why didn't we throw everything in our arsenal at
&gt; Baghdad and the rest of Iraq?

You did, it was called the &quot;shock and awe&quot; campaign. A massive rain of semi-nuclear bombs and laser guided weapons to murder as many people as possible while also safeguarding Iraqi oil fields for American consumption. As for the so called cheering Iraqis in America, why are the real Iraqis in Iraq chanting death to America? Because they suffered the slaughter not the runaways in America.

[Klaymore]

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/yelclap.gif

20 pages of oppurtunity and not a clear answer from RT. *Maybe he could be a spokesman for the DNC.

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]The Taliban are anti-war lord. After all, the whole reason the student militia (taliban) spent so much time fighting wars in Afghanistan was to get rid of the War Lords.


You didn't catch my sarcasm. The taliban was in part funded and supplied with weapons by the United States to fight the soviet/communist threat. So the taliban is also by your definition a &quot;puppet&quot; of the United States, and therefore, a valid target under your definition.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]they are attacking you because you killed alot of innocent muslims in Iraq through sanctions and bombings. I hope you would understand that one day.


THOSE SANCTIONS WERE IMPOSED BY THE UN! Saddam ignored them and reaped $2 billion USD a year.

Iraq Made $2 Billion a Year in Sanctions-Busting (http://story.news.yahoo.com /news?tmpl=story&cid=586&ncid=586&e=8&u=/nm/20030520/wl_nm/energy_iraq_smugglin g_dc)

Back up your charges with some evidence. Show my how many innocent people died in this war. Then research how many people are dead or missing thanks to Saddam.

Quote[/b] ]&quot;there is a rape every sixty minutes in the United States&quot; and &quot;one of four girls are sexually abused before the age of eighteen.&quot;

Now explain to me exactly how Americans invented and are exporting rape.

Quote[/b] ] Quote[/b] ]
in Britain smoking marijuana, in public i believe, carries no bigger penalty than a small fine. Does that mean YOU as a briton are exporting marijuana?


I beleive that we are. We did after all invent heroin chic.


So you agree to be held accountable for someone else's crime?

Quote[/b] ]There is no clause in islam allowing the murder of innocent people, in fact there are Islamic laws to attack murderers such as Americans.


I have not murdered anyone. The fact that I am required to pay taxes or face jail, does not make me a murderer. You continue to lump Americans into one group of murderous savages. You have no right to say I'm guilty of anything. You'll never get it. you will never get it.

Quote[/b] ]You did, it was called the &quot;shock and awe&quot; campaign. A massive rain of semi-nuclear bombs and laser guided weapons to murder as many people as possible while also safeguarding Iraqi oil fields for American consumption. As for the so called cheering Iraqis in America, why are the real Iraqis in Iraq chanting death to America? Because they suffered the slaughter not the runaways in America.

Semi-nuclear? Please explain that one to me. Again. I want you to back up your allegations with some evidence. Show me how many innocent people died. Show me how many military targets were struck with regards to civilian targets. Show me how many Iraqis died in that war compared to how many were slaughtered by his regime. The real Iraqis are in Iraq chanting death to America because they can't stop themselves from looting long enough to be civil. The police run away when they are fired upon instead of firing back. And mainly, because they've been told what to think, how to think, and when to think it for the last 25 years. Old habits die hard. So when the fundamentalist muslims such as yourself, tell the Iraqis to chant death to America, they fall right in line because they don't know any better. Remember the Iraqi Information Minister? That man's job was to lie to the people of Iraq. That whole regime was built upon, and supported by lies, threats, and terror. You expect the people to simply forget that way of life in a few weeks? It's not the Iraqis who have returned looking to set up a democracy that chant death to america, it's the fundamentalists such as yourself, who could care less about democracy, freedom, individual rights. you simply want to replace a dictatorship in the name of saddam, with a dictatorship in the name of allah.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]laser guided weapons to murder as many people as possible while also safeguarding Iraqi oil fields for American consumption.

Weapons do not need to be laser guided to strike massive amounts of people, just look for the residential neighborhoods. However, if a weapon is targeting a specific site, there is no more accurate way to strike that target than a laser guided or gps system. You're contradicting yourself and you don't even know it.

The oil fields were protected because they are the lifeline of Iraq. The oil is the only export for Iraq, and the money it brings in will help feed the people and fund the government. We protected those oil fields for the Iraqis own good, whether they know it or not. If we wanted to take over oil fields, we could go to Venezuela, Mexico, or even Canada. They are a lot closer, and if the Canadians are anything like their French parents, the wars would have ended just as quickly.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]Americans have a policy of killing innocent people

Are you ever going to back up this ridiculous statement with some evidence. *Besides your opinion. *With some hard evidence. *Show me that policy in our constitution. *Show me that policy in any of our laws. *If you're going to tell me Americans murdered 2,000,000 vietnamese then show me where you got your numbers from.

If you want to bring up Japan we can. *Japan attacked the USA. *They struck the USA in the midst of peace talks. *When the war was winding down the Japanese would not surrender. *It is not in their nature to surrender, they would rather die than surrender. *Much like muslims. *So they were warned regarding the atomic bomb. *We dropped one in a remote area, Nagasaki, as a warning. *They would not surrender. *They wanted to fight. Hitler was gone, Europe was free. Even without hope, they wouldn't surrender. *Admirable, but foolish. *We dropped another a-bomb on Hiroshima, they finally surrendered. *We gave them warning, despite their attack on us in the midst of peace talks, we gave them warning to surrender or face annihlation, they chose the latter.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]laser guided weapons to murder as many people as possible

Have you heard of the MOAB? *It was completed, and succesfully tested, and ready for use in Iraq. Pay attention to the date in the site below!

MOAB - Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb (http://www.globalsecurity.o rg/military/systems/munitions/moab.htm)

It wasn't used. *Why? *If we wanted to murder as many people as possible, why wouldn't we use our 3 deadliest weapons? *We didn't use nuclear weapons, we didn't use the daisy-cutter, and we didn't use the MOAB. *

How can you say our intention is mass murder, when we didn't use our 3 deadliest weapons. *The three that would cause the most damage, human and structural.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 20, 2003 -- 6:29 pm)]You didn't catch my sarcasm. *The taliban was in part funded and supplied with weapons by the United States to fight the soviet/communist threat. *So the taliban is also by your definition a &quot;puppet&quot; of the United States, and therefore, a valid target under your definition.
The Taliban as an entity did not exist untill after the Afghan-Russian war. The war was actually fought by several groups of Mujahideen, including war lords, Mujahideen families, foreign muslims and students. All these groups received money mainly from Saudi Arabia and some from the CIA. The money was distributed by the Pakistani ISS. In fact the biggest receiver of CIA funds was a war lord called Gulbadeen Hekmatyar. That hardly makes all these groups puppets of Pakistan/Saudi/USA. They simply shared a common enemy.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 20, 2003 -- 6:51 pm)]THOSE SANCTIONS WERE IMPOSED BY THE UN! *Saddam ignored them and reaped $2 billion USD a year.
Only 2 billion dollars a year for selling oil? You have hightened my opinion of this dictator. Considering the fact that he kept all the hospitals staffed and had even started developement on medical factories. Its quite an acheivement that he did it on only $2 billion a year.

Quote[/b] ]Back up your charges with some evidence. Show my how many innocent people died in this war. Then research how many people are dead or missing thanks to Saddam.

Unicef says that half a million children died as a consequence of US imposed Sanctions on Iraq.

&gt; Now explain to me exactly how Americans invented and are
&gt; exporting rape.

Americans are arming warlords in Afghanistan whose thugs are breaking into homes and raping young children. I guess that people who think alike always alliw themselves together.

&gt; So you agree to be held accountable for someone else's
&gt; crime?

Yes I think this society should be held accountable for allowing the marketing of drugs.

&gt; I have not murdered anyone. The fact that I am required
&gt; to pay taxes or face jail, does not make me a murderer.

In America there is no taxation without representation so those taxes represent you.

&gt; Semi-nuclear? Please explain that one to me. Again.

Daisy cutters use a form of nuclear bomb.

&gt; Show me how many Iraqis died in that war compared to
&gt; how many were slaughtered by his regime.

I estimate that some 3-4 thousand died due to Saddam's brutalities. A further 12 thousand died due to a combined US-Saddam effort to crush a Shiite uprising. Meanwhile 500,000 children were killed by US-imposed sanctions and 200,000 civlians were killed in operation desert storm.

&gt; That whole regime was built upon, and supported by lies,
&gt; threats, and terror.

Yes and Americans sponsored and armed it throughout the 70s and 80s, just like they are arming the Saudi regime right now.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 20, 2003 -- 6:58 pm)]The oil fields were protected because they are the lifeline of Iraq. *The oil is the only export for Iraq, and the money it brings in will help feed the people and fund the government.
I think you mean the lifeline of America. Iraqis like people from any other country can not eat oil. Like anyone else they eat the food grown from the earth. That is why Americans used depleted Uranium bombs in Gulf War '91 and '03 to poison the earth so that children can not be fed and consequently get starved to death. You have to note that murdering children has always been a policy of any American war.

[Idpatriot]

Quote[/b] ]Thanks for the warning, bucko. And back to you. Hitler, Tojo, Kruschev, Saddam and Osama all misunderstood both the will and the tenacity of the Americans. Koranic cultists would be well advised to go back and re-read our history. We are slow to anger but hell on wheels when we get pi$$ed off.


Ooooraahhhh!!!!

RIM is correct....the land that is and was occupied by the &quot;Palestinian Arabs&quot; is Judea, and it was given by GOD to the Children of Isreal in Old Testament Times. That is indeed a fact, and cannot be disputed...unless of course, you wish to dispute the Word of God!

Denise

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (conn.servative @ May 20, 2003 -- 7:04 pm)]If you're going to tell me Americans murdered 2,000,000 vietnamese then show me where you got your numbers from.
&quot;The American invasion of Vietnam marked the last stage of the longest war of the last century, a war in which the greatest tonnage of bombs in history was dropped, in which more than two million Vietnamese were killed and a bountiful land devastated&quot;, source: http://pilger.carlton.com/vietnam


Quote[/b] ]If you want to bring up Japan we can. Japan attacked the USA. They struck the USA

Muslims learnt an important lesson from the Japan-American war. When diplomacy was not working, Japan struck at the heart of the American Military. The Americans in contrast struck at the Japanese civlians, with nuclear bombs, brutally murdering 180 thousand people. As usual, the common American phrases such as &quot;they chose anhiliation&quot;, &quot;they asked for it&quot; and &quot;evil was their choice&quot; were thrown about to justify the American policy of attacking civlians. From this the muslims should learn that the Americans have no honour in war and that therefore it is acceptable to attack so called American civlians.

[Idpatriot]

Terri: I have no problem with you closing this discussion. Talib is brain washed, and is filled with misinformation, lies and rhetoric! He obviously gets his information from the BBC and Al Jazeera television which are biased and do not give honest reporting. Anybody can go to a website and pull up statistics about rape or abortion in this country...just as we can pull up statitistics about Muslims....

Since it seems that Talib knows only of the bad things in this country, only of the porn the sexual misconduct, the bad movies...etc., then I would suggest that he spends too much of his time in those subjects. I live in this country, like the rest of us, and I chose NOT to give it the time of day. I don't pay to go see it, I don't watch it on television, I don't let the porn sites pop up on my computer (I block them), and I make the conscience choice not to get pulled in by the negative and bad stuff. There is evil in this world...you won't get away from it...but you can chose not to be involved in it or view it.

If Talib really knew anything about the regular folk in this great country, he would know that we aren't bad people, and we care!

He will not be convinced of anything different than his preconceptions of us, and what he is told to believe from Muslim clerics! He won't change...and neither will we...so what's the point??

I believe enough has been said....just my opinion though!

Denise

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 20, 2003 -- 8:02 pm)]RIM is correct....the land that is and was occupied by the &quot;Palestinian Arabs&quot; is Judea, and it was given by GOD to the Children of Isreal in Old Testament Times. *That is indeed a fact, and cannot be disputed...unless of course, you wish to dispute the Word of God!
Is that why the so called children of Isreal are busy bulldozing down palestinian homes after throwing them out? Is that why they *destroy thousand of palestinian farmer's crops? (http://news.independent.co. uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=4081 40) Note that many of these farmers are christians and that the arabs are rebuilding christian churches destroyed by Isrealis to honour a 1300 year old contract signed between the Caliph Omar Al Khattab and the Christians. Meanwhile the so called christians in America are donating 6 billion dollars a year to arm the Isrealis in commiting these attrocities.

[Idpatriot]

[/QUOTE]You have to note that murdering children has always been a policy of any American war. [QUOTE]


You know what Talib? You get more laughable and less worth reading with every post! It was Muslim Terrorists who put women and children in front of them as shields .....it is Muslims that don't put any importance on life...not Americans!

But you go right ahead and believe what you want, and what you are told to believe! As I've said before....someday, we will ALL know who has been on the right side of good vs evil!

I am completely convinced that Muslims are extremely envious of America and Americans....they are jealous of the freedom, of the technology, of the wealth and the way of life! It will never be admitted...of course not, but it is most definitely envy that brings the hatred! Muhammad was envious of the blessing of Isaac, and the fact that the Jews were the blessed nation of God, the nation that God made the covenant with, the nation that God gave the land of Judea to. He changed history to fit his desires and to make himself and his race feel more important. It is pure and unadulterated jealousy that drives you people! The west has surpassed the Muslim culture in technology and wealth, and you can't stand it...none of you can! So what do you do...? You seek to destroy that which has surpassed you...you seek to destroy thsoe who have been given more, and you seek to destroy anything that keeps you from total power and control. Rather than look at what you believe and question if it could possibly be your belief system or they way in which you live it, you would rather just wipe out all that aren't Muslim...all that challenge what you believe. Just wipe 'em out, kill all that isn't Muslim...then you don't have to ask the questions, or face the challenges or show tolerance for others who don't fall into line behind you.

As I've said before....I know who the author of those types of lies and deciet is. He is also the author of envy, greed, and power!

When you peel away the layers...it all comes down to good vs evil...the author of good (love, kindness, tolerance,) is God...the author of the other is Satan.

You must decide which side you will be on, I suppose!

I'm done with this....I won't say anymore on this thread.

Denise

[Der Alte]

Let me sum this up - we are bad - they are good - and theres no way for an agreement on either side. My personal opinion is that they are a bunch of cowards hiding behind a womans skirt and don't have the guts to stand up and fight like a man. They are masters of the lie and the bad thing about it, is, they believe their own lies. My final word is: the bottom of my shoe to your face.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Idpatriot @ May 20, 2003 -- 8:27 pm)]*It was Muslim Terrorists who put women and children in front of them as shields ...

Muslims have never used women or children as shields. We dont even allow women or children on the battlfield unlike Americans. What Americans do is bomb whole towns and villages along with the women and children and then make up lies about their victims. They always throw around post-slaughter propergander such as &quot;They chose anhiliation&quot; and &quot;they use women and children as sheilds&quot;. And as usual Americans eat their own propergander every evening at 9pm, sitting in front of their glowing television.

Quote[/b] ]I am completely convinced that Muslims are extremely envious of America and Americans....they are jealous of the freedom, of the technology, of the wealth and the way of life!

If Americans actually opened their mind and stepped outside their country for one one minute they will realise that most countries have almost exactly the same lifestyle as America. From Bahrain to UK to Switzerland to Tokyo. All these countries are living in exorbiant amounts of wealth, so called freedom and technology and in several cases much better lifestyles. So why is it that Americans always try to think that everyone is living in a ditch? Why do they always try to hide the fact that muslims are attacking Americans in retaliation? Why do they try to pretend that retaliation is jealousy? Why are they trying to lie to their own selves??

[navyblue]

Ya know what folks? *Talib is getting to be very, very boring. *Is there an &quot;off&quot; button on him?

Oh, and Talib.....we have an expression over here that you might have heard of.

&quot;Tell it to the Marines!'' * And boy, do I wish you would try!

[Bill Hodges]

Quote[/b] ]Granted, I have only had to be subjected to a few examples of your 'facts,' but for the most part, you seem to be intent on riding roughshod over people with rhetoric and abuse. I hope and expect that I don't have enough history with you to be in the majority in having that opinion, and can only hope you and the people that know you here can help me improve my impression of you over time.


Did you get your feelings hurt because you can't force me to agree with your outrageous remarks and lack of sincerity? Don't expect me to apologize. Talk about issues, you labeled me with charges of being a bigot and full of hate. Where do you get off on trying to enact such sympathetic coercion? Do you always make such charges against people who want you to display evidence for you to support your arguments during a debate? How about those private messages you sent to me? That was really mature of you, wasn't it? As I said before, I am not interested in your 'conjecture' while discussing realities. If you cannot handle differing opinions, I suggest you avoid discussing politics altogether. Just do not attempt to brow beat your opposing beliefs onto me, I am not the type of person who is pushed into submission, son. Get a grip.

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[Terri]

We've spent a week and 22 pages on this topic.

I believe we've served the purpose of letting everyone have a full opportunity to ask their questions and express their opinions.

It's now disintegrated into nothing more than charges fired back and forth with no hope of anyone changing their minds.

This topic is closed.

If anyone disagrees please contact me by private messenger.