FROM AL QAEDA, WITH LOVE

[A CONSERVATIVE]

The Latest Message To America From "The Religion Of Peace":

WE WILL KILL MORE AMERICANS.

DEATH TO AMERICA!!

ALLAH AKBAR!! (Allah is Greater, not "great")

ALLAH AKBAR!!

ALLAH AKBAR!!

Quote[/b] ]
Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda has reorganized and is planning an operation against the United States similar to the Sept. 11 attacks, a member of the Islamic militant group has told an Arabic magazine.

In the article in Sunday's edition of the London-based weekly al-Majalla, made available in advance to Reuters, an al Qaeda "media coordinator" named as Thabet bin Qais also said that striking the U.S. consulate in Karachi was not a priority.



More

HERE (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?ty pe=topNews&storyID=2714319)

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/usflag22.gif

[Saber]

Thanks for bringing all this to our attention Cons.

I used to be the designated "all things muslim" reporter, but you're doing a much better job of it.

Somehow, someway (unfortunately, it may take the next thousands dead) people need to be more fixed on what we are really up against. I don't necessarily mean here at this forum because most people understand the threat, but the more we have the facts out to the general public, the more the realization will begin to dawn.......hopefully .

[A CONSERVATIVE]

Thank you Saber.

Like you said, some of us realize the real danger America is facing.

We have been hit; we should know our enemies by now.

Some of us do, some need another thousands, or millions killed to wake up.

I took upon myself the task of reminding people who our enemy is.

I took upon myself the task of explaining to the Ignorant the nature of our enemies.

I took upon myself the burden of been falsely insulted, humiliated, accused of bigotry, racism, etc. by the same people who have been hurt by the terrorist acts of September 11, 2001, and of course by the Muslims who do not want the non-Muslims to know the real nature of Islam.

Do you realize that the different English translations of the Qur'an published in America and in Europe are FRAUD, Inaccurately translated from its original language, Arabic, which I Speak, Read and Write fluently?

The Translators deliberately manipulated the original meaning of the Qur'an and Hadith (sayings of Mohammad) using euphemism, or different "light" words to cover up many teachings of the Qur'an -and Islam in general-, considered Morally PERVERSE, ATROCIOUS and CRUEL in the Western Civilization, or simply to cover up Historical LIES.

An example of their LIES is in my previous message of today:

"Allah Akbar", is the first phrase the "Mu'azin" (the cleric) use to call Muslims for prayer.

"Allah Akbar" means exactly "Allah is Greater".

The Muslims translated it to "Allah is Great" in English.

Why?

I will explain why in details later in a separate message, but briefly, Allah was A god among MANY other stone gods worshipped by the tribe of Mohammad.

However, Allah was one of the “greatest” stone gods.

That is where the Arabic phrase "Allah Akbar" came from.

Mohammad picked up this "Allah" and considered it "Greater" than all the 300 and some gods worshipped in Mecca.

He even made it the GOD of the Abraham, the Jews and the Christians.

Anyway, It is just a glimpse of the story, I will write more in details later, maybe next Monday or Tuesday.

I would like to mention that I am doing all this for America, not for myself.

I hope I can contribute, even just a little bit, to the safety and protection of this GREAT country and to my fellow American Patriots.

I would like them to open their eyes.

I realized that we are living in a very different world after September 11, 2001.

Others DO NOT CARE.

I would say to them: Yes, live your lives normally, but also KNOW YOUR ENEMY.

Finally, I am glad that you are interested in the subject, and I wish to see many like you who are really bearers of the TRUTH's flame that would enlighten the Ignorant and the Apathetic.

Have a Good Day!

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/usflag22.gif

[RenegadeTalib]

Actually "Allah Hu Akbar", is the arabic phrase, not "Allah Akbar". And the exact translation is: "God is greatest". hence its common use as a battle cry to remind Mujahideen that above all else, "God is greatest".

As for the word, "Allah", it is composed of *2 words: "Al" and "Lah", meaning "The", "God". Arab christians will know this because, in the arabic version of the bible, God is refered to as "Allah".

And these arab bibles have been around for thousands of years. After all Chrsitianity does make up 70% of the lebanese population and 10% of the palestinian population. Remember, Christiany did not start in Europe, it started in the Middle East *:]

[Saber]

HI THERE Renegade Talib! *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wavey.gif

Welcome to http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gopusa.gif *Great to see you posting! *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif

Quote[/b] ]God is greatest". hence its common use as a battle cry to remind Mujahideen that above all else, "God is greatest".


Yes. *Isn't this what they say before they issue their next battle cry of "Kill All Infidels"?

Come to think of it......isn't that also what that pilot was shouting before he deliberately crashed his plane into the ocean and killed everyone on board? Yes, I believe he did say that. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (Saber @ May 10, 2003 -- 9:13 am)]Yes. *Isn't this what they say before they issue their next battle cry of "Kill All Infidels"?
Thanx for the welcome sabre http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Ive watched several "Jihad videos". I havent actually seen anyone say "Kill All Infidels" in the depths of battle with American, Russian or Indian troops. They all seem to just shout "Allah Hu Akbar" all the time. In fact I have not even heard Bin Laden say "Kill all infidels" in his Video massages that he regularly puts out.

However after a succseful operation in a battle they have several slogans, such as "Mullah Omar Zinda Bahd, Osama Zindah Bahd, Mujahideen Zindabaad" which basicly means: "Long live Mullah Omar, Osama and the Mujahideen". Another one is "La Ih Laha Illalaah" which can be translated as "There is no God, but one God".

Actually, If you want to, you can see one of these videos online. This one is of a recent joint Taliban-AlQaeda attack on a US base in Afghanistan. You can even see the Aeroplanes that are sent out to attack the Mujahideen in response:

http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems...._12.asf (http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/streams/video/2003/5/8/1_154067_1_12.asf)

[Saber]

Thanks for the link Renegade, but I'm really not interested in seeing another "kill the infidels" moment. Actually, I believe the koran itself demands the conversion or killing of all infidels. I saw an updated, recent list of the acts of this peaceful religion. It stretched on for a lengthy page or two. That was my quota for today. Maybe tomorrow we'll see more video of their dancing in the streets celebrations as another muslim murderer blows up civilians in a disco. Who knows? Another day.......another muslim call for killing.

[RenegadeTalib]

I would be interested in seeing where the koran asks Muslims to kill all those who dont convert. Surely if this were true, the 90% muslim population of Egypt would have long ago liquidated the 10% Christian population that has has lived there for thousands of years. In fact if you read Saddam Hussein's exiting message he calls upon "christians and muslims of Iraq" to fight the American occupation in a gureilla war. In fact his foreign minister was a Christian.

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ][2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.


Quote[/b] ][5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
[5.34] Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Quote[/b] ][5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.


Quote[/b] ][8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.


Quote[/b] ][8.36] Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell.
[8.37] That Allah might separate the impure from the good, and put the impure, some of it upon the other, and pile it up together, then cast it into hell; these it is that are the losers.


Quote[/b] ][9.73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.


Quote[/b] ][9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.


Quote[/b] ][9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.


Quote[/b] ][9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).


Quote[/b] ][47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates....

HERE (http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html)

These are but a few. There are more.

[pRIMrose]

Quote[/b] ]Qur’an-(9:5): “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, And seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ; but if they repent (accept Islam) and establish regular prayers and practices regular charity then open the way for them; for God is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”

Qur’an-(8:65): “ O Apostle ! Rouse the believers to the fight, if there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering , they will vanquish two hundred; if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers; for these are a people without understanding.”

Quran-2:216: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you

Qur’an-(2:191): “And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out………such is the reward of those who suppress faith.”

Qur’an-(9:29): “Fight those who believe not the Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth even if they are the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

Qur’an(48:20): “….Allah promises you much booty (spoils of war) that you will capture from the defeated infidels….”

Quran-8:38 “And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression”

Quran-8:12: I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Quran-8: 15,16: O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

Quran-9:111: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the

Qur’anQuran-9:73: O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end.

Quran-9:123: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

Quran-4:95: O ye who believe! Shall I show you a commerce that will save you from a painful doom? You should believe in Allah and His messenger, and should strive for the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives. That is better for you, if ye did but know. ... Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).

The Holy Quran (http://islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM)

Any guesses who the "unbelievers" might be? http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

[RenegadeTalib]

Thanks for your interest in Islam Sabre. From what you have quoted, it seems you have slightly misunderstood me. Personally, I fully agree with you on the fact that Islam commands its followers to attack invaders or those who persecute people. In that sense it is not a pacifist religon, it does indeed command very violent retaliation and defence against such aggressions, especially in these verses which were revealed during the time when the Prophet's followers were being killed and driven out from their lands. What I dont see in these passages is any mention of killing infidels for the sake of killing them, or killing those who dont convert. I would be interested in you pointing out the specific verse that you think does condone such activity. However I would be very suprised to see such a passage when your source also contains the quranic verse:

[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

[pRIMrose]

Ooops! Sorry Saber ~ I was in the "post hole" and didn't see your post till I submitted. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin2.gif Guess there isn't such a thing as too much info tho. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]Personally, I fully agree with you on the fact that Islam commands its followers to attack invaders or those who persecute people. In that sense it is not a pacifist religon, it does indeed command very violent retaliation and defence against such aggressions

Please satisfy my curiosity. *Would the above quote refer to the U.S. and U.K. forces presently in Iraq? *

And so we can better understand your viewpoints, would you please tell us your nationality? *It is clear that you are not American.



A Conservative! *Where are you? *Your bell has been rung and it's time to spring into action here!


Go Navy! *The first line of defense!

[Terri]

Welcome to the forum, Renegade Talib!

I hope you don't mind questions because I also like to know a bit about the people who come to the board.

Apparently Talib refers to the Taliban. Since it is your user name are we to infer that you support the Taliban?

navyblue, if you click on RT's profile and then click on his listed homepage you will find yourself at "Jihad Unspun". Very enlightening. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]I took upon myself the burden of been falsely insulted, humiliated, accused of bigotry, racism, etc.

Quote[/b] ]Islam is synonym of Terrorism.

Islam equals Terrorism.



Quote[/b] ]Have we forgotten what the Muslims did to us on September the 11th, 2001?

"Oh no", you will say, "Not all Muslims are like that."

Excuse me, but you are NAIVE.

There are NO "moderate Muslims."

There is NO such thing as "American-Muslims" or "Muslim-Americans".

It is a MYTH, an ILLUSION, and a LIE.

The Muslims are Loyal to One thing ONLY: ISLAM.


Quote[/b] ]If we stay ignorant and do nothing about Islam and the

Muslims living among us, well, get ready in few years to tell

your wife, your daughter to wear the Islamic VEIL and you

too ma'am get ready to be enslaved to your husband and

accept the fact that Islam allows your husband to marry 3

others and get ready to live with them under one roof.

Quote[/b] ]Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1661
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices


You've shown you're prejudices against all muslims by saying "there are no moderate muslims". You've proven yourself to be a bigot. I've falsely accused you of NOTHING.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]Apparently Talib refers to the Taliban

I'm not answering for our new member, but FYI-Talib is also simply an arabic name.

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] ]Please satisfy my curiosity. *Would the above quote refer to the U.S. and U.K. forces presently in Iraq?

And so we can better understand your viewpoints, would you please tell us your nationality? *It is clear that you are not American.

I was not refering to anything, except for that which was was written on the website.

As for my nationality, I am British. And talib means student. A word I have taken from my fathers' language of native Pakistan.

[pRIMrose]

Ummmmm...... http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif conn.servative ~ could you point me in the directon where you obtained those quotes. I can't seem to find them in this thread. :???

[pRIMrose]

Hi RT ~ http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wavey.gif I'm a little slow today, so let me welcome you to http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gopusa.gif

When you say you are British, we all know that there are many muslims in GB. You don't have to answer this, but I think we are trying to determine if you are of the muslim faith ~ not a particular nationality.

[conn.servative]

RIM- they're not in this thread, but certainly related...here's the source for the quotes from A Conservative...

War on Terror-Terrorists Among Us-page 1 (http://gopusa.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.pl?act=ST; f=18;t=3195)

[conn.servative]

A Conservative: *I know you don't like answering questions, only taking shots, making accusations, insulting the intelligence of those who disagree with you, and then referring to your posts as if we never read them in the first place. *But humor me....

Quote[/b] ]If we stay ignorant and do nothing about Islam and the

Muslims living among us

Recalling that we have the freedom of or from religion in this country. *What exactly should we "do" about Islam and the muslims living among us? *Are you full of warnings, threats, and accusations, or do you have any answers? *Are you "A Conservative" or will you continue to use the tactics of "A Liberal"?

[pRIMrose]

Thanks conn.s ~ I was beginning to think I need to get my http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/granny.gif glasses changed. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laff.gif

[conn.servative]

no problem, i should have added the link the first time around seeing as how it was from a different thread. I wouldn't want anyone to think i was making that stuff up like our friends the the NY Times http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[pRIMrose]

conn.s ~ not to worry ~ nobody can compete with the NYTimes in the prevarication department. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laff.gif

[RenegadeTalib]

Quote[/b] (pRIMrose @ May 10, 2003 -- 1:45 pm)]Hi RT ~ http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wavey.gif I'm a little slow today, so let me welcome you to http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gopusa.gif

When you say you are British, we all know that there are many muslims in GB. *You don't have to answer this, but I think we are trying to determine if you are of the muslim faith ~ not a particular nationality.
Hi Primrose http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif yes I am muslim.

[Saber]

Renegade. *Here's the problem. *These islamicists seem to think everything and nothing is a cause for killing the unbelievers (infidels). *Just exactly what was the justification for killing 3,000 American citizens (and many others I might add) on September 11? *hmmmmmmmm??? *Anything they deem they "don't like" seems to be a cause for killing innocents. *

conn. *Calling someone a bigot normally comes from the liberals and is as ugly to those it is intended as those that serve it up. *Until the "moderate muslims" show their face and stand up to the "fanatics", I can't see them. *Where are they? *As long as they are living their lives by the dictates of the koran (knowing what the koran teaches), there is extreme cause for suspicion IMO, especially since VERY few feel the need to speak out against people who have supposedly hijacked "their" religion. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif *They ought to be in jihad against these "hijackers"......yet nary a peep...only celebrations in the streets. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[azwhitewolf]

Well, I've said a few things about Muslims, and I've been wanting one to come in and explain a few things, so welcome Renegade Talib.

Heard a guy as a guest on the NewsBunch (talk radio) who told listeners to email him about Muslims, and I did, but he didn't respond. A second email to him was sent back undeliverable. So I will post my email to him, to YOU Renegade, if you don't mind answering. I have read the Qu'ran myself, and found it extremely interesting, though I am not Muslim. I've also read many other religious teachings in my time, and I would appreciate you helping me understand things from a Muslim perspective.

I'll warn you - I do not believe that Islam is a peaceful religion, I think the people are peaceful, and peace-loving, but I think the religion and teaching itself is violent. If it's not, I'm leaving it to you to make the argument. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif And I'm willing to listen and learn.

Here is the letter.

Dear Dr. Fadel;

I believe it was you on the radio today in Phoenix Arizona.

First of all, you are the FIRST Muslim I've heard to come out in public in support of the US. Thank you, and I'm honored to write you.

While I have read the Qur'an (as well as the Torah, the Bible, The Satanic Bible, Book of Mormon, and many other religious accounts), I've had quite a few questions about Islam that I've posted on many discussion boards (unanswered), directly to Muslims (evasive explanations) and religious leaders (who won't discuss it without a muslim friend of mine present). I still can't seem to get an answer, so I'm going to ask you.

I was going to talk to you on the radio today (I had called in and gotten through), but hung up, really out of respect for you, because I did not want to sound like I was bashing your beliefs on the air. My questions were better asked in private, one-on-one because they are rather pointed.

Feel free to teach while answering these.

Every Muslim says Islam is a religion of peace. If so,
a. Why must unbelievers be converted or conquered (which is a re-orruring theme in the Qur'an)?
b. Most Muslims would say that Mohammed Ata is in heaven according to the Qur'anic teaching. What do you say?
c. Surah 2:190, Allah says "Fight in the cause of Allah, those who fight you. And slay them where you catch them". What was the context of this?
d. What are the three waves of Jihad? My understanding is that it is (Americanized, so please correct me if I'm wrong) Shock, Display vulnerability of earthly life, and humiliation of the enemy.
e. If I don't believe in Islam, am I an "infedel"?
f. Explain Surah 2:216 - Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows and you do not". If this isn't about combat, what is it about?
g. What are the scales of Allah? (Money, or Power, or Justice..?)
h. How can Islamics marry outside the religion and follow Surah 3:28? It seems to contradict. It commands "Let Not", not "frown upon" or "discourage". In essence, you can't do it, but if you do, Allah won't help you - yet the final goal is to Allah. I'm confused on that.

A caller today asked you if Islam incites any kind of violence, and you said no, the teachings do not permit it. But what does Surah 4:90 say - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you may become alike. Take not, therefore, friends from among them, until they emigrate in the way of ALLAH. And if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and take no friend nor helper from among them" seems to lean towards violence rather than peace.

This is pretty point-blank stuff, Dr. Again, should I, as an unbeliever be afraid of my lack of belief in Islam by people who follow this teaching AS IT READS? I mean, it's in the book - rather than condenming violence, it seems to sometimes justify it.

It just seems that domination, power, and the blessing of Allah is the main theme of Islam. There IS a lot of peace in the Qur'an, granted, however I've noticed that it was demanded (blessed by Allah) from the perspective of believer-to-believer, rather than believer-to-nonbeliever.

Certainly, you can understand a guy like me who reads the Qur'an and gets confused by a lot of war talk. Granted, the Torah, the Pentetucht and the Bible all speak of wars, but it was on a basis requiring God's command. In the case of the Torah, the jews wait for the messiah. Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled the position of messiah. This is where I get confused: Many Islamic Leaders called for Jihad. And the masses gathered! Who gets to call a jihad?

Mohammed commanded the followers of Islam to conquer and convert. Are the "muslim extremists" doing just that in the present "jihad" and if not, why are there so many people from other countries jumping on board and traveling to Baghdad?

I've given you a lot to respond to, and I apologize for the lenth, but I can only ask people so many times before I have to draw my own conclusions.

Thank you for your time. I hope you don't look at this as a challenge, but an opportunity to help someone understand.

Sincerely,

(name edited) AZWW

[pRIMrose]

Quote[/b] ]Hi Primrose yes I am muslim.

Thanks for the response RT ~ I kinda thought you might be. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Perhaps you will be the one to enlighten us about this very confusing and controversial religion. AZWhitewolf has enumerated quite a few very good questions regarding the Q'uran. I'm very anxious to hear your response.

However, like Saber has said, the so called "moderate" muslims have been very silent, for the most part, ever since 9/11. You can surely understand our trepidation when it comes to trusting people who adhere to a religion that seems to hate all "infidels" and that translates into christians and jews mainly.

BTW ~ do you consider yourself a "moderate" muslim?

[A CONSERVATIVE]

I do not have the time to answer everything.

I answered most of the questions in my previous messages, but it is the Islamic Mentality of REPEATING.

So I refer the Muslims, the supporters of Terrorism (rightly their REAL name), to read AGAIN All my messages on the different topics of this GOPUSA Forum.

However, I would like to point out another LIE in the first Muslim post-reply.


"Allah Akbar" means "Allah is Greater"

"Allah Al Akabr" means "Allah the Greatest.”

"Allah Kabir" means "Allah is Great.”


There you have it, do not let any Muslim cheat you.

The Muslims are just followers of the BIG LIAR called Mohammad-Hell-Be-Upon-Him.

So when Mohammad said "Allah Akbar,” he meant that Allah, the STONE IDOL is Greater than the other 300 and some, STONE IDOLS which his tribe and others were worshipping.

Do not let the Muslims fool you.

When it comes to the Arabic Language, ASK ME.

As I said before, I will write later in details about Allah and everything Islam.

Have a Good Day!

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/usflag22.gif

[Constitutional American]

Renegade Talib,

I just wanted to add my voice to the interested parties.
Personally, as neither a Muslim nor a Christian, I would love to hear your perspective.

Please don't let the prejudicial rants of some disuade you from responding. There are many people here who will give your posts honest & considerate evaluation.

Thanks for your time & hope to hear back...

[azwhitewolf]

A Conservative:

You have been asked several times by members here to answer questions asked of you. *You don't, but then you answer questions that people ask other people.

I have SPECIFICALLY directed my questions toward Renegade Talib, for he claims to BE a Muslim. *Thanks for your input, I have already read your opinion. *However, let the guy explain if he wishes to do so.

The fact that you're so insistent that no-one else can think for themselves shows that you feel very threatened by a world-wide religion, which is not making your case look either biased or balanced. *

I can speak for myself. *And so can Renegade Talib. *Or any other Muslim for that matter. I welcome the opportunity to be "cheated" as you put it, since I have actually READ the Qu'ran, and the Qu'ran is the document being "put to the test".

Not everyone understands the Bible, but I certainly have a grasp on some of the common "mis-understandings" to back up my faith to people who don't believe - do you know how many times I've heard people say "The Bible says...." when the Bible doesn't say anything CLOSE to what people say it says? I'm giving someone else the very same opportunity - a forum to justify his faith. We'll see if he wants to further the discussion.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]conn. Calling someone a bigot normally comes from the liberals and is as ugly to those it is intended as those that serve it up.

Saber- if the shoe fits...

Yes it usually comes from the liberals who resort to name-calling, however in this instance, I've defined the word, and quoted the person who i feel is bigoted. His words speak for themselves. Look at the definition of bigot, and look again at his quotes, and if you disagree with me then prove to me that I'm wrong. Show me how he is tolerant, show me how he isn't tied down to his own opinion. Show me I'm wrong, don't just say it's an ugly word. I know it's an ugly word, and I only use it when it absolutely fits. In this case, it couldn't fit any better.

[Terri]

conn, I have to agree with Saber on labeling people as bigots. Even though you may be firmly convinced that it is so, it's a trigger word that increases the heat in a discussion but doesn't add any light at all.

But, I have a general question for you. I'm assuming that you are acquainted with Muslims and that you have knowledge of the religion. Have you discussed these issues with them? I'd like to know what they think about the attacks on 9/11 and about the current situation across the Middle East.

This has been said before in here, but when people will not speak out and absolutely condemn what happened on 9/11, when they won't condemn suicide bombers in Israel, when they won't say that they think Israel has the right to exist as a state in the place where they are, just what are we to think?

With very few exceptions, I have not heard Muslims condemn any of the actions of their radical brothers. If they don't condemn, then they do support, if only by omission.

[A CONSERVATIVE]

If I may intervene, I would like to say:

Terri, you got it right.

And that is what I meant by "there are no “Moderate Muslims.""

If a Muslim does not condemn all what you mentioned, then he/she approves the Terrorist activities perpetrated by their "brothers."

What is a Muslim?

A Muslim is someone who APPLIES the teachings of Islam in real life, who put the teachings of the Qur'an and Hadith in ACTION. That is a DEVOUT Muslim, i.e. Bin Laden, etc.

Who is not a Muslim?

Those who claim to be Muslims but do not PRACTICE their Islam do not put it into ACTION are not "Moderate Muslims,” as many in the West falsely think.

They simply are NOT Muslims, i.e. they are NOT considered Muslims by their "brothers", the DEVOUT.

They may go to Mosques for prayer, perform the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca), but in fact, they are NOT considered "real Muslims" by the Devout.

Hating Israel, America, and the West in general (all the Infidels, i.e. the non-Muslims) and putting this Hate into Action is actually APPLYING the teachings of Islam, it is the litmus test for being a good Muslim.

How do I know all that?

I lived among all kind of Muslims, and still am in contact with many.

I know what they really feel about America, Israel and the Western Civilization.

They rejoiced when September 11, 2001 happened.

And by "they,” I mean especially, the Muslims who live in America, those who are considered “Moderate.”

One of them told me these exact words the next day of the attacks:

"America deserves it. I am sad because the plane missed the White House."

The person who said the above was BORN IN AMERICA, a “Moderate.”

Yes, this is what people call "Muslim-American."

Yes, this is what people call “Moderate Muslim.”

As I said, this person is just a sample I write about here.

ALL of the so-called “Moderate Muslims" condone Bin Laden’s activities and WANT MORE.

They want America to get down on her knees, be defeated, and humiliated.

Why?

Because America, and these are their exact words “America is Evil. America is the Great Satan.”

Those who claim to “condemn” Bin Laden, etc., are doing it because they are afraid, they are protecting their rears against the American Anger.

However, let me tell you something, if another September 11 happens, and I think it will, the American people will rise against the Muslims living in America. And that will be the end of Islam in America.

They will have the choice of LEAVING or America will KICK them OUT.

Other many alternatives will be on the table.

The point is: America will not take it anymore.

We, the American people, are going to have enough.

We will be fed up with Islam and the Muslims.

The anger will be immense.

You got the picture now.

No further comments.

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/usflag22.gif

[noPEACEwithoutJUSTICE]

AZ has "laid down the gauntlet" so to speak...

Will no one answer the questions? I agree with Conn, that individuals of the Muslim faith have been seen as people who respect peace. Muslims in Des Moines, IA are about as invisible as they can be, unless they're of the Black activist variety. Even then, we only have one--and he's a decent, law-abiding fellow.

But Terri is right in saying that there has been no Muslim outcry of condemnation for the acts of 9/11. If Christians had perpetrated an act of such violence and evil, there would be a response from every denominational Bishop, the Pope, and nearly every itinerant preacher. The Pope and several others even decried the acts of liberation in Iraq by the US--they would've screamed for days.

Not so much as a peep in condemnation from the Muslims. We did hear that the "US got what they deserved" and other obscenities, but few voices of any consequence condemning the act.

But both AZWW and A Conservative, albeit in varying degrees of tact, have voiced opinions backed up by numerous excerpts from the Qu'ran...please, someone enlighten us.

Does "Allah Akbar" mean God is Great, God is Greater, or God is Greatest?

Let me try this:

I want to see these sentences translated into Arabic--- "Tony is great." "Jose is greater." "George is greatest." By eliminating, "Tony", "Jose", and "George", I should be able to find out which one "allah" is--great, greater, or greatest.




Of course, if Muslims could eliminate Tony, Jose, and George, we wouldn't even be asking these questions, would we? http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[A CONSERVATIVE]

Again:

Allah Kabir = Allah is GREAT

Allah Akbar = Allah is GREATER

Allah Al Akbar = Allah The GREATEST

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/usflag22.gif

[fundament.]

blah blah blah

[navyblue]

Quote[/b] ]But Terri is right in saying that there has been no Muslim outcry of condemnation for the acts of 9/11. *If Christians had perpetrated an act of such violence and evil, there would be a response from every denominational Bishop, the Pope, and nearly every itinerant preacher. *The Pope and several others even decried the acts of liberation in Iraq by the US--they would've screamed for days.

Not so much as a peep in condemnation from the Muslims. *We did hear that the "US got what they deserved" and other obscenities, but few voices of any consequence condemning the act.


And this is why I tend to agree with A Conservative! * As Terri says, *I have not heard any of the moderates standing up and condemning the violence. *When I pass the MSA recruitment tables on campus, if you dare to meet their eyes, you will receive hateful looks in return.

A Conservative! *Enough already with the translation of "Allah ahkbar!" * No need to get hung up on that. *We get the picture.

[Terri]

fundament, we have a rule here about name calling. It hasn't quite gotten our of hand in this topic but it's come close. Labeling someone a bigot adds absolutely nothing to the discussion but it does increase the likelihood of flaming. Then no one will ever find out anything about this subject.

conn, I just want to know what you know from first hand experience with the Muslim religion or people.

This could all be laid to rest if "moderate" Muslims would speak out.

[fundament.]

blah blah blah

[Terri]

fundament, we need a link to your quoted material because of copyright law.

I haven't read back through the thread. Please point me to the passage where any member here was called a murderer.

Quote[/b] ]Also please consider that many ordinary Muslims who decry terrorism do speak out, but they do so in their own communities in Arabic or Indonesian or Farsi and they aren't nearly as likely to get on TV as a bunch of Hamas guys with kalashnikovs are.

For months after 9/11 certain hosts on Fox News evening shows were begging Muslims to come onto their shows and explain their beliefs. Fox was not the only media outlet to do so. Many, many Muslims did appear but when they were asked to answer the questions we've asked here straight out, they wouldn't do it. They wouldn't say that they condemned what happened on 9/11. *

I would like to believe that not all Muslims want to kill the infidel but until they speak out against those who do, I have no choice but to think that America needs to protect herself against an enemy.

We've asked and asked in here only to be ignored.

It's also obvious to me that many thousands of Muslims are living in this country who have not committed atrocities. I want to believe the best of them but they need to speak up.

[fundament.]

blah blah blah

[Terri]

fundament, we have to have a link or we have to remove the quote. I'm not being hard to get along with but we observe copyright law to protect GOPUSA and it's owner. All you need to do is copy the url from your browser window and come here, click edit on your post and paste it in.

Also, please read through the rules again. They cover both the copyright issue, name calling and a few other things that every member agrees to when they sign up here.

A blanket statement about Muslims isn't an attack on a member. It may be wrong but it can be countered by other posters.

And I'm not defending A Conservative or anyone else in particular. Read the rules and you'll understand them better.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]it's a trigger word that increases the heat in a discussion but doesn't add any light at all.


I've asked him direct questions time and again. *He refuses to answer them, he instead chooses to answer questions you ask of me, and questions that are asked of other people.. *Read through the thread you'll see exactly what I mean. *So maybe I'm out of line, but sometimes the truth hurts.

Quote[/b] ]I would like to believe that not all Muslims want to kill the infidel but until they speak out against those who do, I have no choice but to think that America needs to protect herself against an enemy.


As I said before, I'm not defending the religion of Islam, I'm defending the right of muslims who abide by our law to practice their religion in this country. *

We cannot declare war on every muslim in this country who didn't write his local paper, beg to be on tv, or post a big giant sign decrying 9/11.

Yes, we are at war. *Yes the enemy is real, and is highly capable. *One of the reasons they are so capable is that the enemy is very difficult to identify, what A conservative would do is take every one who's ever stepped into a mosque and deport them, whether or not they were born here. *

When we declare war on a religion we throw out our constitution. *We throw out our rights to practice any religion so long as it coincides with applicable law. *When does it stop? *When a christian blows up a synagogue? *Will we then outlaw christianity? *

And since when are people REQUIRED to make their personal political views public knowledge. *

You're holding muslims to a different standard. *I've had people become offended when I asked them if they were republican or democrat. *

No matter how disgusting I find it, no matter how angry it makes me, no matter what foul things I would like to do to someone who actually looks back at 9/11 and smiles. *They still have the right to their opinion. *Freedom works both ways remember? *This is the same principle as we've been discussing with hollywood. *Muslims have the right to say we deserved 9/11. *Does that make them terrorists? *No, it means we should most certainly keep an eye on some of them, but just because Madonna said France feels like home, doesn't mean she's French. *

Even if muslims did come out and vehemently oppose 9/11, would it make them any more safe after the next attack by a muslim. Would we be at all inclined to believe a muslim. The muslims who attacked us on 9/11 certainly weren't being honest about their intentions in this country. So what good does it do besided make it a little easier for people who are scared to sleep at night. And by keeping silent it makes it a little easier for people who would ordinarily hate muslims anyway, to do so publicly, and feel vindicated and justified, like "A Conservative" does.

Oh, but he's not talking about all muslims, he's talking about DEVOUT muslims. The other muslims aren't real muslims. They're fake muslims. Pseudo-muslims. Pretend muslims. That's like saying that my dad isn't black because he's a republican. That's like saying I'm an Uncle Tom because I don't believe in affirmative action. So are the only jews in the world Orthodox Jews? Are the only Christians in the world Catholics? Since Protestants like Luther and Calvin broke away from the Catholic Church. Which ones are the REAL christians? Oh please do tell us high and mighty Conservative!

Every muslim I've spoken with since 9/11 has been friendly, has been remorseful, and has been very patriotic even though the majority of them immigrated. *

And let's be honest here, none of us care WHY any muslim may or may not have condoned what happened on 9/11. *We DEMAND that they reject it, and if they don't, they'll suffer a serious backlash. *That's not freedom, that's extortion. *

I've never been more proud to be an American than in the last 2 1/2 years. *But when this country starts dictating what religion can and can't be practiced, and starts dictating what it's citizens will think regarding history, this country has then taken a step backwards, and we're no better than the regimes we are fighting against. *

Racists have the right to be racists. *Bigots have the right to be bigots. *I will support their right to be that way, but I will not forfeit my right to call them what they are.

Again, I'm not condoning what happened on 9/11, but since when do we get to decide what other people must think? *No matter how perverse it is, THOUGHT is still free. *OPINIONS are still legal. *ACTIONS are governed. *I judge people on their actions, not on whether or not they keep their opinions to themselves. *

Jayson Blair, the journalist at the NY Times who was fired for plagarism and other violations happens to be black.

Where's the outcry from the National Association of Black Journalists. *How about the NAACP? *Where are Jesse & Al? *Where's CORE? *How come African Americans are so silent? *They should be outraged! *They should be leading demonstrations against this man! *

Well, we are outraged. *But more importantly, we're embarrased. *How often do you people air your dirty laundry? *Or do you like to keep things you're not so proud of in the closet? *

Maybe A Conservative is right. *Maybe EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM IN THE WORLD would like to see this country destroyed. *

I agree with you that they should speak out, but they aren't required to.

[fundament.]

blah blah blah

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]As I said before, I'm not defending the religion of Islam, I'm defending the right of muslims who abide by our law to practice their religion in this country.

Where were they denied?

Quote[/b] ]We cannot declare war on every muslim in this country who didn't write his local paper, beg to be on tv, or post a big giant sign decrying 9/11.

I don't think that most of us in this thread have declared war. We've asked questions which have not received answers.

Quote[/b] ]And since when are people REQUIRED to make their personal political views public knowledge. *

You're holding muslims to a different standard. *I've had people become offended when I asked them if they were republican or democrat. *

Conn, you're being very defensive for no reason. This is a political forum. Making our political views public is what we do here.

Quote[/b] ]Every muslim I've spoken with since 9/11 has been friendly, has been remorseful, and has been very patriotic even though the majority of them immigrated. *

This is what I asked you and you didn't answer my questions either. Who are they? How well do you know them? Are they casual contacts? Do you see them everyday? Are they best friends to the point that you really know their thoughts. If Muslims won't speak for themselves then all we can do is ask those who know them.

Quote[/b] ]And let's be honest here, none of us care WHY any muslim may or may not have condoned what happened on 9/11. *We DEMAND that they reject it, and if they don't, they'll suffer a serious backlash. *That's not freedom, that's extortion.

You couldn't be more wrong if you are deliberately trying. We do want to know what they think. I want to know if they condon it or reject it. I want to know what they think and why they think it.

Quote[/b] ]I've never been more proud to be an American than in the last 2 1/2 years. *But when this country starts dictating what religion can and can't be practiced,

Where? Give me links and quotes. No Muslim has been denied the right to practice their religion that I'm aware of. The one Mosque in my city has received extra protection and outreach from the city but still they don't come forward and condemn what happened.

As to Jayson Blair there is a topic about his situation in Current Events. Do you honestly think that there haven't been people of other colors who were also deceitful? Am I ashamed because they are the same color as me? Nope. They don't have anymore to do with me than Jayson Blair has to do with honest, hard working black journalists. He is a reflection on himself, on the NY Times and on the failed idealogy that they implemented when they allowed him to stay after they found out his problems. He is not a reflection on his race.

Conn, in the time you've been at this forum, I've developed a deep respect for your posts and your opinions. This one is not what I've come to expect. You may be irritated with one person in here but the rest of us are also asking questions.

[A CONSERVATIVE]

Terri, I want also to point out that everything I write is well-explained and referred to from Islam's Holy Books and actual events in recent and old History.

I do not throw accusations just like that.

I think the Muslims do not like what they are reading because it exposes their Islam and its founder: Mohammad.

I am not making this up.

It is a Historical Fact, coming out from the Muslims' "Holy Books."

Should we stop calling Hitler a “Racist, Mass-Murderer” because we do not want to offend the New-Nazis?


Some of you may wonder: if the Muslims know all that about Mohammad, why do they still believe in him and his so-called "Allah"?

The answer is very short and simple:

THEY ARE BRAINWASHED.

Islam is POLITICS and RACISM.

Politics = One Islamic Umma (Nation). It is the end-goal of all Muslims around the World

Racism = One Umma made of Muslims ONLY.

We all know the verses of "Killing" the non-Muslims.

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[Terri]

fundament, I added the link. Thank you.

It has been suggested to me privately that perhaps we just can't discuss this subject and not break the rules. I don't think that's been proven as yet.

However, I am going to ask everyone in here to try harder not to incite people of the opposite viewpoint.

[fundament.]

blah blah blah

[Terri]

A Conservative, it is non-productive for you to keep posting the same things.

There are ways to discuss a subject like this and ways not to do so.

Please take a look at your post and edit the inciteful comments.

We have people in this topic who would really like to hear from the other side. You have made your point of view very clear.

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ](I know conservatives aren't big on irony)

A blanket statement if I ever saw one. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]Where were they denied?


Quote[/b] ]Islam is synonym of Terrorism.

Islam equals Terrorism.

I told you yesterday about the Muslims' plan to have an Islamic TV Channel in America.

I will let you imagine how it can be a tremendous danger to our National Security.

Any terror action against our country can be jump-started by a code-word, a hand-signal, a nod, etc. and we are just sitting there watching them, thinking: "Oh, that's good, that's freedom of expression, of religion, of the press."


Terrorists Among Us (http://gopusa.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.pl?act=ST; f=18;t=3195)

Quote[/b] ]I don't think that most of us in this thread have declared war. We've asked questions which have not received answers.


So have I Terri.

Quote[/b] ]Conn, you're being very defensive for no reason. This is a political forum. Making our political views public is what we do here.


Sorry for the confusion. *I have no problem making my opinion available. *What I'm referring to is the complaints from many people demanding that Muslims speak out against the attacks. *

Quote[/b] ]But Terri is right in saying that there has been no Muslim outcry of condemnation for the acts of 9/11

They don't have to. *I agree that it would be comforting to see, but they don't have to. *This is what I was referring too.

Quote[/b] ]This is what I asked you and you didn't answer my questions either. Who are they? How well do you know them? Are they casual contacts? Do you see them everyday? Are they best friends to the point that you really know their thoughts. If Muslims won't speak for themselves then all we can do is ask those who know them.


Casual contacts at local stores that I frequent, and also friends of the family. *I've spoken with a Lebanese man whose son I grew up with, and also a friend from high school. *But here's my point. *Whether or not they agree or disagree with us is moot. *They can still be muslim as long as they don't break any laws. *My posts are directed at A Conservative who is begging us to wage a war with Islam.

Quote[/b] ]Quote *
And let's be honest here, none of us care WHY any muslim may or may not have condoned what happened on 9/11. *We DEMAND that they reject it, and if they don't, they'll suffer a serious backlash. *That's not freedom, that's extortion.


You couldn't be more wrong if you are deliberately trying. We do want to know what they think. I want to know if they condon it or reject it. I want to know what they think and why they think it.


Maybe I didn't give you and some others on this board enough credit. *But I can't honestly say I would want to stick around for the "here's why" after hearing "you deserved 9/11". *I'd have to walk away before I did something violent. *I'm sure you want to know what muslims think, but that doesn't mean they have to share it with you. *In their silence you all assign guilt. *We "rip" liberal entertainers for speaking their minds, and rightly so, but we can't "rip" people for being silent when they, themselves, have done nothing wrong.


Quote[/b] ]Quote *
I've never been more proud to be an American than in the last 2 1/2 years. *But when this country starts dictating what religion can and can't be practiced, *


Where? Give me links and quotes. No Muslim has been denied the right to practice their religion that I'm aware of.

I didn't say we have. *I said when we start. *I don't think we ever will, but this is exactly what A Conservative proposes....which is what i'm addressing.

Quote[/b] ]PLEASE HELP SAVE AMERICA FROM ISLAM, SATAN'S RELIGION.


Regarding Jayson Blair

Quote[/b] ]He is a reflection on himself, on the NY Times and on the failed idealogy that they implemented when they allowed him to stay after they found out his problems. He is not a reflection on his race.

So why are the 19 muslims who attacked on 9/11 a reflection on ALL muslims? *YOU may make a distinction, which is what I beg of everyone, but A Conservative doesn't....that's my point.

Also, I modified my prior post, i've cut and pasted it below in case you didn't notice....

Even if muslims did come out and vehemently oppose 9/11, would it make them any more safe after the next attack by a muslim. *Would we be at all inclined to believe a muslim. *The muslims who attacked us on 9/11 certainly weren't being honest about their intentions in this country. *So what good does it do besided make it a little easier for people who are scared to sleep at night. *And by keeping silent it makes it a little easier for people who would ordinarily hate muslims anyway, to do so publicly, and feel vindicated and justified, like "A Conservative" does. *

Oh, but he's not talking about all muslims, he's talking about DEVOUT muslims. *The other muslims aren't real muslims. *They're fake muslims. *Pseudo-muslims. *Pretend muslims. *That's like saying that my dad isn't black because he's a republican. * *That's like saying I'm an Uncle Tom because I don't believe in affirmative action. *So are the only jews in the world Orthodox Jews? *Are the only Christians in the world Catholics? *Since Protestants like Luther and Calvin broke away from the Catholic Church. *Which ones are the REAL christians? *Oh please do tell us high and mighty Conservative!

[fundament.]

blah blah blah

[USNfromME]

Ah, but aren't we getting feisty in the old forum tonight.

My http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twocents.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Might it not be possible that Muslims' failure to condemn the terrorist acts is due to a religious prohibition? Could it be that as members of Islam they believe to condemn another Muslim is a breach of their faith? I don't know, I'm just asking. It is impossible for me to believe EVERY Muslim supports acts of terror against non-Muslims.

Or perhaps it could be that Muslims in the US are reticent to speak out because they fear being shunned in their own communities. If an American group was living in China, they probably would tend to live together in "islands of Americanism." If an American terrorist group committed an atrocity against China, might not the Americans be hesitant to speak out - especially if all Americans were labelled terrorists? An American might dispute the label and assert the differences between moderate Americans and radical American terrorists. But under the circumstances and with the host country in a nationalistic fervor, might not the wise American prefer to remain out of the limelight?

Not speaking out does not necessarily infer support for the terrorists. It could be caused by cultural or religious prohibitions. It could also be that, unlike most Americans, foreigners have more respect for their hosts and keep their opinions within their own communities.

Correct me if I'm wrong, http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif but I seem to remember several Muslims interviewed on FOX who did condemn the attacks. They were clerics or officials in the Islamic faith and may have had more leeway in expressing themselves.

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]Casual contacts at local stores that I frequent, and also friends of the family. *I've spoken with a Lebanese man whose son I grew up with, and also a friend from high school. *But here's my point. *Whether or not they agree or disagree with us is moot. *They can still be muslim as long as they don't break any laws. *My posts are directed at A Conservative who is begging us to wage a war with Islam.

Ok, you don't have the information I'm looking for.

conn, I believe that America has been very tolerant in the wake of 9/11. There have been very few incidents of any kind against Muslims.

I've seen no evidence at all that there is any widespread desire in America to limit Muslim's right to worship.

But in this topic, I've seen a great deal of over reaction on both sides.

Let me just say that no matter which side of this issue we are on what we think is purely speculation. *It's speculation because ordinary Muslims won't speak out. No, of course they don't have to but it would be to their great advantage to do so if they do not agree with the radicals.

[azwhitewolf]

Quote[/b] ]BIGOT (Websters): A person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
Well, shoot. Then anyone who staunchly believes in anything that they choose is a bigot. Someone who sticks to their guns is a bigot. Someone who won't accept someone else's ideology for themselves... wow.

Well, that's me. I'm a bigot, then. You guys have a need to call me a bigot, go ahead. I'm cemented in my beliefs. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/shake.gif This truly can't be the most applicable definition. How do you become a non-bigot - "opening your mind" to every other possibility"? There ought to be a negative connotation to someone like THAT also!
Quote[/b] ]But Terri is right in saying that there has been no Muslim outcry of condemnation for the acts of 9/11

(Conn)
They don't have to. I agree that it would be comforting to see, but they don't have to. This is what I was referring too.
Well, here's the thing. I agree and disagree. There are 2 options that I see:

1. Muslims can remain silent, and let their silence constitute approval of the acts. This is their right, but it doesn't mean that Non-Muslim Americans are going to accept that with the utmost tolerance, peace and love.... OR

2. They can come out and defend themselves, say what is on their mind, and really straighten out the mis-understandings. Do I think it's a misunderstanding? Of course I should WANT to think of it that way, but other than reading the Qu'ran, I have to rely (somewhat) on a believer and how HE interprets it. I am a scholar to some degree on my own religion, and I understand when people "don't understand" my beliefs. So I want to hear the other side. Sure, I can't MAKE them tell me, but wouldn't you think they'd WANT to, just to clear their beliefs?
Quote[/b] ] If an American terrorist group committed an atrocity against China, might not the Americans be hesitant to speak out - especially if all Americans were labelled terrorists?
I wouldn't. I'd get on every TV and radio station and say "Hey, this isn't what we believe." You'd think a group would be at the offended country's MERCY. But Muslims, from what I can gather, are either:
1. Unaffected
2. Too arrogant
3. Or too scared of (1) Americans, or (2) fellow Muslims.

I'm not trying to offend Muslims, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. There's too little information, and the only information I have DOES seem to support the worst.

There was one guy on here earlier who gave me his email address, and said he was a Muslim, but didn't want to stand under the pressure of everyone. If someone can tell me how to get to my PM's, I'll email him and see if he'll answer a few of the questions. He was a really nice guy, and seemed to be really open. I'm just not sure he's interested in being accused (A Conservative) before he can make his case, or has the time to field every question.

Or I"ll email him my laundry list, and ask his permisson to post his answers to this board.

Renegade Talib - your offer was generous, but it's getting a little thin, buddy. Teach us! http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[pRIMrose]

I don't have time this morning to weigh in here. But the short story is, after reading "Islam Unveiled," that the majority of muslims are deathly afraid of their own religion ~ or of those that enforce it. This book is a wealth of information and dispels some of the myths and misconceptions of the muslim/Islamic religion. They believe that the "Qu'ran" was written by Allah (God) and sent via the angel Gabriel to Mohammed. They believe it was not a book written by prophet(s) as the Christian bible. They believe it was written by Allah and delivered to Mohammed. However, there have been many translations and interpretations. Muslims believe/adhere to the literal interpretation of the Qu'ran which was delivered 1400 years ago. Which, if compared to the Christian bible, would be believing and adhering to the literal translation of the Old Testament today. The Christian bible progressed with time, whereas the Qu'ran is as it was 1400 years ago.

More later............... .....

[Saber]

Quote[/b] ]I would like to believe that not all Muslims want to kill the infidel but until they speak out against those who do, I have no choice but to think that America needs to protect herself against an enemy.


Thank you Terri. There is a galloping case of rapid growing cancer right now in the islam religion IMO and the "moderates" are standing by letting it become terminal.

I agree with RIM. Everything I have read tells me that islam insists on strict interpretation, much like is presented in the Old Testament. And I agree with A Conservative that "moderates", to their own islam "brother", is not considered a true muslim. I've heard that before, and it is quite plainly evidenced in OBL's reported hatred of Saddam. Saddam just isn't a "true muslim".

It's not just 9/11 that these people are remaining silent about either. There have been MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY slaughters in the VERY recent past by those men of peace. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif One of these days I'm going to post the lengthy RECENT list, but now will apparently have to add on the latest peaceful display with 20 civilians (10 American's) dead in SA at the hands of car bombing muslim murderers.

As AZ said, if "bigot" is the definition you used, conn, then I proudly wear the "KISS ME, I'M A BIGOT" badge every single day of my life. I live my life with very firm opinions based on known and reported facts. Until the facts lead me to change my opinions, they remain firmly entrenched. Anything less to me is a moderate fencesitter.

Terri, I would agree that getting second-hand information about a muslim's "feelings" are not ideal. However, since most refuse to speak up at all, that is all we are left with. I will caution though that I understand that muslims are forgiven for lies to the infidel if it advances the cause of islam. I do not have a quote or any proof of that in any teachings. Perhaps someone else could help me here with that. I DO know that in my small circle of friends, it has proven itself to be true more than once (that's second-hand knowledge again....not ideal).

Quote[/b] ]My posts are directed at A Conservative who is begging us to wage a war with Islam.


Quote[/b] ]I've never been more proud to be an American than in the last 2 1/2 years. But when this country starts dictating what religion can and can't be practiced, ...

quote from conn....

My posts are directed at A Conservative who is begging us to wage a war with Islam.


Quote[/b] ]And by keeping silent it makes it a little easier for people who would ordinarily hate muslims anyway, to do so publicly, and feel vindicated and justified, like "A Conservative" does.


Quote[/b] ] Oh please do tell us high and mighty Conservative!


I find all of these quotes quite unusual of you conn. You are personally attacking him based on his interpretation of the past 2 1/2 years which he has backed up with facts. You have called him (and those of us who agree with his interpretation) bigots. I agree with most everything he has said, though in my old age of becoming more PC (yeah), the way he says them is harsh. His harshness does not, however, change the facts or our 2 1/2 years of waiting, watching, and learning. You can disagree with us all you want, but twisting around words to infer things that aren't there and calling us names does not advance your normally well thought out disagreements IMO.

If the shoe fits.......indeed.

[USNfromME]

Quote[/b] ]I wouldn't. I'd get on every TV and radio station and say "Hey, this isn't what we believe."

Your quote was taken out of context. I was referring to an American in an American community in China. They might not feel so free to express themselves.

I heard many Muslims on cable and broadcast news say that the terrorists were not exemplars of Islam. What I didn't hear was condemnation.

[Terri]

Wolf, are you having trouble accessing your private messages? As I understand it they are there for 30 days.

Also, a bit of housekeeping: I've made a small permanent change to the copyright rules. It concerns using the exact original title when you post an article.

I've mentioned it in the Precinct but if you don't visit there you can read it by clicking on Rules and reading #5.

Thanks for your cooperation.

[USNfromME]

Quote[/b] ]As AZ said, if "bigot" is the definition you used, conn, then I proudly wear the "KISS ME, I'M A BIGOT" badge every single day of my life. *I live my life with very firm opinions based on known and reported facts.

Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd ed,:

bigot (big'et) n. [Fr. < OFr., a term of insult used of Normans, apparently a Norman oath < ? ME bi god, by God] 1. a person who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc. 2. a narrow-minded, prejudiced person -- See see ZEALOT

Quote[/b] ]Anything less to me is a moderate fencesitter.


I can't agree with you here. I can in no way be labelled a fencesitter, but I am willing to keep an open mind when I don't have enough facts and evidence to make a rational decision. A fencesitter is afraid or unwilling to make a choice. A fool is one who takes and encourages others to take a position without adequate information.

Last I heard, we still had a policy of "Innocent until proven guilty" and "beyond a reasonable doubt."

If we honestly believe that Islam presents a threat to US National Security, we need to investigate and unearth proof of such an allegation. Then act. We acted on emotion once before and interned a lot of innocent Japanese in 1942.

[matthewfink]

RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGE DICTIONARY
Quote[/b] ]bigot (big'et), n. a person who is extremely intolerant of another's creed, belief, or opinion.

I would hope that none of us here are that. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Matthew

[azwhitewolf]

Quote[/b] ]I would hope that none of us here are that.
Well, define "intolerant". Would you use the REAL meaning, or the "liberal's definition"? http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Those are two different things. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif Mind you, I'm not proclaiming to be a bigot in the sense that the recent definitions, but in the sense that I stick to my guns, yet keep an unusually fair open mind for discussion. I love learning about other people. Cripes. I'm not a hater of anyone, but I usually disagree with EVERYONE on SOMETHING.
Quote[/b] ] I will caution though that I understand that muslims are forgiven for lies to the infidel if it advances the cause of islam.
The closest I can think of goes under the lines of: Don't worry about breaking any agreements with an unbeliever if they are not a follower of Allah. But I'm pressed for time and can't get it accurately.
Quote[/b] ]bigot (big'et) n. [Fr. < OFr., a term of insult used of Normans, apparently a Norman oath < ?
And I don't pick on Normans. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Quote[/b] ]Quote
I wouldn't. I'd get on every TV and radio station and say "Hey, this isn't what we believe."


Your quote was taken out of context. I was referring to an American in an American community in China. They might not feel so free to express themselves.
USfromMe, I meant that AS an American living in an American Community in China.

But if you want to split hairs, you can't even stand up in China and admit you're a Christian without going missing days later, still believers go and hand out Bibles, and "take the persecution" that's given to them. China is one of the biggest offenders of human rights, yet if it meant saving my life over what people like me believe, I'd make my beliefs known! Hmmm. I guess when you live in such a FREE and ACCEPTING society like the US, you would JUMP at every opportunity to spread your beliefs, and condemn 9-11, and make the Islamic faith look appealing. Look at all the free press they have access to if they'd just TALK!

[noPEACEwithoutJUSTICE]

I think the way to approach this, as a Conservative, is a strict adherence to the Constitution on the issue of Islam.

Freedom of religion and the freedom to express thoughts and feelings about this country are inalienable rights, granted by our Creator. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bible.gif

If I choose not to believe in the One who has granted those inalienable rights, then so be it. *If I choose to think a big rock lodged in the bed of a stream is my god, so be it. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bowlow.gif God and this country won't deny me the right to be wrong. *But, this country won't deny anyone the right to be critical of those beliefs either. *Others have the right to call me a fool for my beliefs, and point it out at every opportunity. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/withstupid.gif

But if our goal is to see change--maybe redemption, Truth, life...then arguing is not the way to change. *It's not even the way to get ideas on the table for discussion. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

The debate here has shown that A Conservative is passionate and obstinate about his challenge of Muslims and of Islam. *Why? *Was he a Muslim who has experienced some change? *He is certainly knowledgeable about the religion in one aspect, but one-sided and quick-to-judge. *I don't think he's a bigot, necessarily, he just sees people being deceived and wants to see that made right. *

Similarly, I am passionate about my Conservatism. *My dad is a staunch union Democrat. *I think he's been deceived for a long time by his party. *I think he is naive in his politics. *

Is a heated argument the best way to change his mind? *Absolutely not. *

I need to be careful about what I say and how I say it. *He's not dumb, he just has his reasons for believing the way he does. *Will I change his mind through an argument? *No. *After an argument where my dad actually defended Clinton, I don't know if there's anything that will ever change his mind. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/banghead.gif

But this venue should be an exchange of IDEAS and OPINIONS. *Facts are used to back up one's opinions.

A Conservative, even though you're passionate, an "I believe..." or a "My understanding is..." will make your arguments a touch less preachy and a bit more palateable. *

Conn--your post was brilliant in your defense of a Muslim's right to beliefs, silence, criticism, fear-- their rights to freedom in this country. *I'm glad you call it like you see it. *I can see how the average Muslim would wait for an Imam or someone with authority to speak out. *Things were tempered in statements because I think the Muslims fear the radicals in their own religion. *But fear of extremism only gives it undue strength. *Our country was built on shrugging off oppression and taking the chance that you might be persecuted--as AZWW points out for Christians in China.

Hatred of a group or a groups beliefs is EASY. *It's seeking understanding that's hard. *

Jesus, if I can use him as an example, accepted water from a Samaritan woman at the well. *Samaritans practiced a mish-mash religion---watered down Judaism. *Shunned by most Jews, she was accepted by the "King of the Jews". *With Jesus she drank from the well of "living water". *Jesus accepts in darkness and nurtures into light. *

The parable of the Good Samaritan is a story of what it means in Jesus' eyes to be charitable and righteous. *Lending aid and being kind is more God-like than having the right argument, being rich, or being an authority on religion.

As a country who recognizes that it was a small group of Muslims who hated us enough to carry out 9/11, let Americans be careful not to become hateful, suspicious and paranoid of all things Islamic. *It is our freedom that makes us different and thus hated. *Should we sacrifice that which we hold sacred for a little "security"? *That, fundament., would be ironic.

Our country is one of tolerance of even the worst among us so that the best among us will neither be denied the right to be good. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag17.gif

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]You have called him (and those of us who agree with his interpretation) bigots.

First of all, I have not called any of you bigots. One person fit that description. A person who stands by their convictions is not a bigot.

Bigot - A person OBSTINATELY or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions.

Obstinate- PERVERSELY adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course IN SPITE of reason, arguments, or persuasion

I don't think any of you are perverse, or would do anything out of spite.

AZ, Saber, Terri and the rest of you, except for one, are at least expressing some desire to learn, to gain insight, and listen to reason, an argument, or persuasion. One person has refused to listen to reason, has refused to address my argument, or even acknowledge it. He instead chooses to answer questions presented to other people, instead of questions presented to him. That person is a bigot, whether you agree with him or not does not make you a bigot, I do not think that any of you, except for one, are bigots. I think you are ALL, even that one, intelligent people, but I think one person in particular is so passionate about this topic, that they have let their passion blind them to reason. This person speaks nearly as harshly as the people he is fighting against. The rest of you would like to DISCUSS the topic. One of you GIVES ORDERS and MAKES CHARGES, and cares not what anyone else has to say, because as he said, "moderate muslims are a MYTH, a LIE, an ILLUSION".

Do I have to post his inflammatory remarks again?

What facts has he presented to show that there are no moderate muslims? Point me to them so I can see for myself. He has charged every muslim in America as either being a terrorist, or not being a muslim. I ask you this. Who is he to decide who is and isn't a muslim? The clerics and Ummas and hardliners may say they aren't true muslims, but it's not their decision to make, and it's not his decision to make. If a person tells me they are a muslim, then I take them at their word. Whether or not they are a "true" muslim is between them and Allah. So for him to say there are "no moderate muslims", and for him to call Islam a synonym to Terrorism means that in his eyes all muslims are terrorists. That is bigotry. I don't recall seeing any of you write that all muslims are terrorists, therefore I don't feel the term bigot applies to anyone else. You've all expressed concern at the lack of response from muslims, and rightly so. But you've not charged all muslims with being terrorists. Which is what A Conservative did. Quote[/b] ]What is a Muslim?

A Muslim is someone who APPLIES the teachings of Islam in real life, who put the teachings of the Qur'an and Hadith in ACTION. That is a DEVOUT Muslim, i.e. Bin Laden, etc.

Who is not a Muslim?

Those who claim to be Muslims but do not PRACTICE their Islam do not put it into ACTION are not "Moderate Muslims,” as many in the West falsely think.

They simply are NOT Muslims, i.e. they are NOT considered Muslims by their "brothers", the DEVOUT.

They may go to Mosques for prayer, perform the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca), but in fact, they are NOT considered "real Muslims" by the Devout.


It is not up to you, or "the devout" to decide who is and who isn't muslims. "The devout" don't decide who is and who isn't a muslim, each individual person decides that. So when he decides not to make a distinction between devout muslims and other muslims, he's agreeing with those people he's fighting against and saying "they are NOT muslims". But what exactly gives him the right to say that? He's no better than "the devout" who make the same statement. And in his relentless attack against anything having to do with Islam, he is also no better than the "devout" who relentlessly attack anything that goes against Islam.

Quote[/b] ]but twisting around words to infer things that aren't there and calling us names does not advance your normally well thought out disagreements IMO.


I have quoted him time and time again. I have provided links. I HAVE NOT twisted any words.

As a matter of fact...the man who accused Islam of being a racist religion (whether it is or not is irrelevant), and the man who has gone on record saying "there are no moderate muslims, it is a lie, an illusion, a myth", said this....Quote[/b] ]How we deal with this issue without coming down to name calling, stereotyping, and throwing the race card?



Maybe I'm guilty of name-calling, but the stereotyping and race card were thrown out there by the author of that quote.

I have repeated also that I am not defending Muslims or Islam. Just the right for muslims to practice their religion in this country peacefully, without being told "you are not a true-muslim", or "your religion is a fake, a big-lie", without someone telling them that they are either pretend muslims or terrorists, there is no middle ground.

So again, what words did i twist around? I quoted him directly in each of my response. I made it clear that I'm not defending Islam, but defending freedom of religion, and making the point that NOBODY has the right to decide who IS and who ISN'T a muslim. That's between each muslim and Allah. Again, I have not called anyone else a bigot. I did not say your request to hear from muslims was unreasonable, i said they are not required to speak out, and we can't conclude that their silence means they too are terrorist-sympathizers.

One last quote from A Conservative:

Quote[/b] ]To those who say, "The Iraqis in Michigan rejoiced, supported Bush, etc." (I think it's you, Terri) ...

Well, they rejoiced because they HATE Saddam, not because they LOVE America.

Yes, some of the Iraqi Muslims DO Like (not Love) America because they made a Fortune here and they do not care about Islam, or religion in general, they are not devout Muslims, they want to protect their Fortune

How in the world does this one man, know why all the Iraqis in Michigan rejoiced. I saw the majority of those Iraqis waving an Iraqi flag right next to an American flag. How can he speak for all of those people? How does he know that some like, but don't love America, and why? It's these kind of generalizations that he frequently makes, which justify his broad attack on Islam. He further feels vindicated by his agreement with the "devout" that you either hate Israel and America or you are not muslim.

I'd be willing to bet there are millions of muslims, mostly here in America, but I'm sure there are at least SOME abroad, that would disagree with that statement. Just because they're not out actively looking for press doesn't mean they sympathize with terrorists.

You've have to make one giant assumption that the media cannot get any muslims on tv, radio, or press to condemn 9/11. How do you know this? How do you know that the media is even trying? That's what I'd like to know. News is always about getting tommorrow's story today. Not the story from 2 1/2 years ago today. I saw muslims in America condemning the attacks and waving American flags. And I saw muslims overseas dancing in the streets. It's clear that there are muslims who can live here in peace, whether or not they condemn the attacks is their opinion, I can't see how they could support the attacks, because it directly threatens their safety, but nonetheless, it's their opinion. The one muslim who I trust to give me his honest opinion, but who won't for fear of offending me because he truly does love America has the opinion that it was a horrible day, one that he never wishes to see, but he also feels that our government is not entirely innocent. He feels that our invasive foreign policy (a policy which I have defended time and time again mind you, this is not my opinion) has led to hatred of America, and that 9/11 was some of that backlash. It is entirely possible to love this country, but not be proud of or love everything that's happened. How can one love slavery, oppression or colonialism? He would make the argument that colonialism and a foreign policy that favored the muslim's enemy, Jews, is what led to 9/11. That doesn't mean he sympathizes or agrees with what the terrorists did, it only means he can recognize their reasons for doing what they did. But how do you explain that to a fervently patriotic country at a time of mourning, when fearing a backlash similar to what was done to the Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor? Is it entirely unreasonable to allow them the right to remain silent, without assigning guilt?

We had 1 or 2 muslims in this thread. Where are they now?
Quote[/b] ]There was one guy on here earlier who gave me his email address, and said he was a Muslim, but didn't want to stand under the pressure of everyone.

Here's an example of an ANONYMOUS user who didn't want to be involved because of the pressure. It seems as if the question that has been asked has been "why don't muslims come out and condemn 9/11" as opposed to "what do you think about 9/11". It seems as if the general consensus is that muslims should condemn, and if they don't they sympathize. Maybe they condemn the attacks, and they condemn the actions by the US that led to the attacks, but I don't think anyone really wants to hear that.

[Terri]

I keep trying to stay out of this discussion but it's too important.

First, I don't want to have to edit posts here but the accusations of bigotry have to stop. *If any of you want to consider yourselves as bigots, that's up to you, but no more accusations against other members.

Let's just drop the word, drop the definitions and discuss the issues.

I am asking that all inflammatory remarks stop. This subject is so important. How can we ever expect to solve our problems as a country if we can't even discuss the subject in a forum like this?

I've posted an article in Culture that really irritates me. I'd like your comments on it if it interests you too.
Discussion on Israel draws protesters (http://gopusa.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.pl?act=ST; f=11;t=3426)

Btw, if there are Muslims lurking who wish to join in the discussion I will see to it that you are not personally attacked. We would like to have your comments.

[noPEACEwithoutJUSTICE]

Quote[/b] ]I will see to it that you are not personally attacked.

That this would have to be said greatly saddens me.

[Terri]

Actually, I'm not sure that it is necessary No Peace, but it is daunting to come into a forum full of people who hold opposing views or who are suspicious. I think that probably describes us.

However, some of the rhetoric in this topic has been so hot that I feel it's worthwhile to make this special assurance.

Heat and personal accusations do not add anything useful to a discussion.

[Saber]

I agree that it's important Terri. Deadly important in fact.

However, I'm bowing out of this thread. It's a bit much for me. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[USNfromME]

conn.servative : You have nothing to apologize for. I never thought you were referring to me or most of the others when you used "bigot."

I can readily identify with your frustration. It is very tiresome to try to work through the rhetoric of some posts to see what the author was trying to say.

Now, can someone please tell me the gist of this thread? http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Terri]

I'm sorry to hear that anyone is bowing out because the thread has become too intense.

I hate to moderate so tightly but it appears that I have to.

Shall we close this topic and start over?

Your opinions count.

[conn.servative]

I'll apologize to those of you who took offense to the "b" word. *It truly wasn't directed towards any of you, or a particular argument. *I hope you understand that my problem was with the way the argument was presented, by one particular person, not the stance itself. *

I don't think any of you are unreasonable in your questions. *All along WE'VE been asking why the muslims haven't come out and condemned the attacks, this is why I feel that some people have a predetermined response that they want to hear from muslims, and I suspect that one of several reasons for their silence, is their fear that WE won't like what they have to say. *But again, how do WE know they are being silent, and how do WE know that they're speaking out, but just aren't being heard? *Does anyone know of any "american/muslim/arab" periodicals that we could refer to?

(I'm capitalizing WE so that you'll understand that I'm not trying to exclude myself from your concerns, or make myself innocent in all this, but rather voice them in an appropriate way.)

[pRIMrose]

Quote[/b] ]Let's just drop the word, drop the definitions and discuss the issues.

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/yelclap.gif GMTA ~ I was going to suggest the same thing. I'm really weary of being treated to endless dictionary definitions. This isn't the sixth grade ~ it's supposed to be an adult civil discussion. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/peepwallA.gif

Of all the religions, or at least most, it would appear that Islam is the most violent. At least in these times. At one time Christianity was a violent religion. But as I mentioned, Christianity has evolved into what it is today. Islam is essentially the same as it has been for 1400 years. They didn't evolve.

There have been several muslims who have attempted to shed some light on the inner sanctum of the Islamic religion and had to fear for their lives. Suliman Bashear, a muslim scholar, argued that "Islam developed as a religion gradually rather than emerging fully formed from the mouth of the Prophet." For this his muslim students in the University of Nablus, threw him out of second story window. Another scholar, Christoph Luxenberg, had to write under a pseudonym for fear of reprisals. And we all know what happened to Salamon Rushdie(sp). It has been proved over and over that between fear and political correctness, it is essentially imposible to say anything other than sugary nonsense about Islam ~ even within the religion itself.

This country, however, has become preoccupied with political correctness, which put us at a distinct disadantage when trying the decipher what the Isamic religion really is. We aren't allowed to connect the dots. We are forced to ignore the obvious and tell ourselves that "Islam is really a peaceful religion" no matter how our common sense screams it isn't.

Is there any doubt what hatred is spred via the Nation of Islam and it's chief benefactor Louis Farakhan? How many clerics in this country deem it necessary to surround themselves with armed thugs who do nothing to promote peace but instill hatred? Not Billy Graham. Not Pat Robertson. Not Jerry Falwell. No matter what one may consider them to be, they are not spreading hate.

It isn't by chance that the Christian religion advocates "turning the other cheek." There is no such comparison in the Qu'ran ~ or at least I have not found it as yet.

Then there is the definition of martyr. A Christian martyr does not kill himself. He is usually killed or persecuted *because* of his faith. The notion of strapping bombs on oneself and in the process killing not only as many other as you can, but yourself also, is a distinctly Islamic construct.

Even our president has been tolerant above and beyond the call of duty. The very people he was sharing a podium with at the memorial to 9/11. Abdurahman Alamoudi was with President Bush at a prayer service for the victims. However, only a year before he had said to a group of muslims, "Hear that, Bill Clinton! We are all supporters of Hamas. I wish they add that I am also a supporter of Hezbollah." Also at the service was Muzzammil Siddiqi, the spiritual leader of the Islamic Society of Orange County. He also made a speech a year earlier saying, "The United States of America is directly and indirectly responsible for the plight of the Palestinian people. If you remain on the side of injustice the wrath of God will come." What are we to think when these clerics and leaders have been free to spred their message to their flocks for years? Let us not forget that fifteen of the terrorists who flew planes into the WTC were from SA. However, they came here in good faith, went to school, got married, raised families and all the while were plotting to kill as many Americans as possible. And we are to believe that no one in the muslim community knew of this. We do know that no one came forward and offered any warning.

One of the greatest deficiencies in the Islamic religion, IMO, lies in the fact that the religion *is* the government. The religion has no central authority, except for what the different factions garner from the Qur'an. Islam is many things. It is Wahhabis, Sunnis, Shiites. Wahhabism has been determined to be the main form of Islamic fundamentalism. And we all know where the Wahhabis reside. But of course, since we are irretrievably politically correct, we refer to them as our friends the Saudis.

After all is said and done, we must, for our own survival, determine whether we are at war with "terrorism" or at war with a renegade terrorist religion and demand that those who are peaceful stand up and be counted.

IMO, it calls for a giant leap of faith to ask the people of this country to throw caution to the wind and blindly accept that "Islam" is a peaceful religion. It just isn't possible for us to make the distinction when very few of them will step forward and renounce the violence. If they truly fear reprisals from within their own religion, then surely they can understand why we fear them.

[noPEACEwithoutJUSTICE]

A CONSERVATIVE wrote:
Quote[/b] ]Like you said, some of us realize the real danger America is facing.


This in only the third post of this thread.

I don't doubt the danger posed on American soil from any "hate" group. I just don't want to become one of them.

There is always "real danger" in freedom.

To paraphrase (?) an oft quoted Ben Franklin on the subject: "Those that would give up their freedom for a bit of security deserve neither freedom nor security."

I'd rather have Muslims for neighbors than have a government deciding with what guns I can or can't defend myself.

Don't forget that a huge purveyor of terror and injustice on American soil during the Clinton presidency were the Janet Reno run Justice Department at Ruby Ridge and Waco and extremists Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols reportedly responding to these 2 fiasco attacks by Federal officers on American citizens.

Add to it the Clinton's unprecedented use of the IRS to threaten, bully and hamper Conservative groups critical of his Most Immoral Administration. This activity is much more serious that a threat from our recognized enemies--this comes from within, using the trappings of our government to unduly control the citizenry.

Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition got not so much as a lengthy glance, while organizations as pure as a newborn baby got the IRS stormtrooper treatment several times. (I 'd take the time to find the specific conservative org. They werent' the only ones critical of the (P)resident that this happened to.)

Judicial activism is a currently a worse threat to American Freedom than Al Queda.

We have always been our own worst enemy...

Like I tell my Little Leaguers when they begin to struggle at the plate or with fielding the ball: "Go back to the basics."

Don't ignore the miscues of judicial activism or our porked-up national budget--consult the document all those in Washington swore to uphold when they took office, and stop doing what those in the Middle East are best known for--blaming someone else for the source of all their problems.

[conn.servative]

Here are the reasons my forehead is steaming....

Quote[/b] ]I took upon myself the task of reminding people who our enemy is.

I took upon myself the task of explaining to the Ignorant the nature of our enemies.


I challenge the first sentence. *Who is our enemy? *The author of that quote also said = "ISLAM IS TERRORISM". *So i think it would be logical to assume(i hate doing that, but he won't respond to me) he feels Islam and therefore, Muslims, are the enemy. *I still fail to see how he has proved that all muslims are terrorists, and I refuse to accept hating Israel and America as prerequisites for being a muslim.

Regarding the second sentence, I took that personal. *I challenged his stance, he responded with "you're ignorant" and actually, in War on Terror- Terrorists Among Us- before I could even challenge his argument, anyone who disagreed was called "naive". *Check the topic. All of this, while self-congratulating.

What response do I get to my challenge?

Quote[/b] ]I also noticed people defending Islam, (could they be Muslims?) on this message board.

Or Liberals?

Or just plain Idiots-Ignorant?


Thank you for that well though out, fact-based response.

Of course, later on he responded with...

Quote[/b] ]
How we deal with this issue without coming down to name calling, stereotyping, and throwing the race card?


So I apologize for turning the heat up, but look at it from my point of view, read these responses, and then remember that not once would he address me or my argument directly, and remember that he instead chose to answer for me and for others when he wasn't asked a question. *Hopefully you'll see why I used such a harsh word, and hopefully you'll understand it was absolutely NOT directed towards you, or anyone who agrees with A Conservative.

[conn.servative]

Quote[/b] ]IMO, it calls for a giant leap of faith to ask the people of this country to throw caution to the wind and blindly accept that "Islam" is a peaceful religion. *It just isn't possible for us to make the distinction when very few of them will step forward and renounce the violence. *If they truly fear reprisals from within their own religion, then surely they can understand why we fear them.


Thank you pRIMrose for that post, you've summed it up brilliantly and I agree with you. *I don't ask anyone to assume Islam is a peaceful religion, but millions of muslims in America practice it peacefully, so I do know that it's possible. I don't think it's a peaceful religion, but it's protected by the single most important document in the history of the world.

This post is what I wish A Conservative would do. *Present a logical argument based on facts and you're interpretation of those facts. *Thank you, thank you, thank you. *I agree with you wholeheartedly. *I just caution against 1) Assuming that silence = guilt *2) making statements such as Islam = terrorism.

[noPEACEwithoutJUSTICE]

pRIMrose--

I agree with the opinions in your post--great summary...

Here then, is my question to Islam's critics (including me): Are they free to have the opinion 'America deserved it'? *

Are they free to practice whatever version of Islam they adhere to? *Should they be?

Is Islam so tied to governance that Democracy and Islam will always be in conflict? *

Here is Victor Mordecai's site. *He has strong opinions about Islam and a tremendous understanding of its conflict with Judeo-Christian Western Civilization. *He advocates for "world mobilization to terminate Islam as a system". (http://www.vicmord.com/islamicthreat.htm)

Quote[/b] ]Moslems are good people, like the Germans or Russians, but Islam as a system is evil like Nazism and Communism.


I was made aware of Mordecai's site because of an article about the OK City Bombing and McVeigh linked with Middle Eastern terrorists...sorry that no one has since completely ferreted out all the facts... *Sounded like a "conspiracy theorist"...but worth looking at, nonetheless.

[pRIMrose]

Thanks NPWJ http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ~ and thanks for the link. I am finding that trying to understand this religion is fascinating. Perhaps even spellbinding, as in that of a snake charmer. You know you have reason to be very afraid but you think you have the ability to contain the danger. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif The more I read the more I can see that what is lovingly referred to as "Peaceful Islam" and the other side of the coin, the radical fundamentalist muslim Ilsam will eventually have to come to terms. The two cannot co-exist and have peace in the world. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twocents.gif

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]I'll apologize to those of you who took offense to the "b" word. *It truly wasn't directed towards any of you, or a particular argument. *I hope you understand that my problem was with the way the argument was presented, by one particular person, not the stance itself. *

Yes, I do. I hope you understand that your responses were unlike what I've come to expect from you.

Quote[/b] ]Does anyone know of any "american/muslim/arab" periodicals that we could refer to?

I think we can all look for articles from American-Muslims and post what we find here. Maybe that will give us a better picture.

In light of last night's attack I think I will start a book I've had for awhile. It's about Saudi Arabia and is entitled Hatred's Kingdom.

RIM, I can't disagree with anything you said. Common sense tells me that they don't all believe that, or there would be many more attacks worldwide but they sure don't say so.

No Peace, at some point we may have to recognize that our own documents that guarantee our freedom can also be used to end it.

Conn, no one has proven that all Muslims are terrorists. Yes there were inflammatory comments posted. *Do you see why I ask that people debate issues and not personalities?

Quote[/b] ]I just caution against 1) Assuming that silence = guilt *2

It doesn't equal guilt but results count, not intentions. Compare it to the demonstrators against the war. Their intention may not have been to support Saddam but in fact they did.

No Peace I will look at that site. I've read several articles about an Iraqi connection with McVeigh. It isn't proven but it sounds possible to me.

One more thing, you are all free to criticize the way I moderate this topic. It's difficult to moderate and participate and if it gets too hot in here I will have to stop participating. I hope that doesn't happen because this is a very serious and interesting topic.

[Leelanau]

It took me a while to read all the posts, but I've done it now and have a few comments of my own.

It's very hard to understand the Islamic religion because no one has stepped forward to help anyone understand. *They don't care if we understand, in fact, they would prefer if we just kept our nose out of their business. *The only problem is, they have now made it our business. *But like Christianity and it's many denominations - it's a mess to try and sort out all the views on one document. *It comes down to literal interpretations - which are the ones that trouble me. *

At the same time, I'm also extremely frustrated with the Christian "fundamentalists ". *There are a few FAR rights out there who are "cutting and pasting" pieces of the Quaran for view without taking into context the text preceding or following it. *I believe in the Bible's literal translation - but not if you cut only one sentance out of a whole passage. *How can you make an argument with only a small portion of the facts?

Another problem with the Quaran may be the same one I have with current print editions of the Bible. *How many people need to put their own "spin" on the translations?? *Why do there need to be so MANY different versions of the same document?? *Because some people read the literal translation, and others decide to subsitute new words to replace the original - which causes problems. *Anyone can go out and publish their version of the Good Book and market it under some inane title like "Southern Fundamentalist Version" or "North American Continental Version". *Isn't that how they came up with the New International Version?? *I was raised with the King James, with all the "thee" and "thou" - why now are people even considering changing He to He/She?? *

There have ALWAYS been holy wars. *There will ALWAYS be holy wars. *The Judeo-Christian followers and the Islamic followers have been at war, literally, for thousands of years. *Does anyone think that things are going to be changed now? *It comes down to a basic difference of opinion. *Only when your opinion is of a religious nature, it causes a very passionate response.

I believe in God, the resurrection and the return of Christ in days to come. *I am not afraid of Islamics as a threat to my faith - my faith will remain strong no matter what they decide to do to us. *They can not change it with a show of force, nor can they change it with debate in a civil matter. *I can however, live in peace until the day of judgement. *God will sort us all out then. *Not a single living soul on the face of this earth knows for absolutely certain what will happen after our deaths!! *Their faith is what leads them on, no matter what path they take. *

As a Christian, I almost feel pity for those that believe that blowing up innocent people will gain them the gates of heaven - but they made their choice. *Everyone has the power to make choices for themselves in matter of faith - but not all of them make the right choices. *A person can live in faith in their heart of hearts, not declaring their choice, but practicing their beliefs. *Some of those silent Islamics (maybe many) are NOT choosing to blow up people because they feel it isn't the true path - but are not allowed to speak their mind and heart because of the tyranny of not only their goverments but of their local religious leaders.

It would take divine intervention to reconcile these two religions, even though they claim to follow the same God. *I see nothing I have read in the Quaran that shows me they are following the teachings of God, respect for Jesus as a prophet (as they say they do), or spreading the word of God by peaceful means. *In my opinion, they are speading Islam at the point of a sword - but history tells us that this has always been their way. *

God, Family, Country - they become one and the same to me when I think of someone attacking our shores. *By physically attacking the US and her people, radicals have attacked my beliefs, my country and my family. *True American's do not let others walk over them like a rug - WE WILL defend our beliefs, our families and our country. *I think we proved that quite nicely just recently, don't you?

[noPEACEwithoutJUSTICE]

Leelanau: Quote[/b] ]Isn't that how they came up with the New International Version?? *I was raised with the King James,

The King James version is "art", but is not an accurate translation from original texts. *

People argue about the accuracy of the NIV, but it, by far, is the most accurate translation to date.

Bible scholars point out how much is lost in the translation from original texts. *They say words and ideas from the Hebrew or the Greek had greater meanings --symbolic and alliterative--than just word for word translations can offer. *Thus the great amount of commentary.

I try to consider the source--is it respected ecumenically? *

The KJV is difficult for kids to understand--heck it's hard for adults to understand. *Jesus spoke in plain language. *The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples at Pentecost and the gospel was declared in ALL the languages of the people near them. *If God, through the Holy Spirit, was concerned about getting the "word" out in many tongues, are we to be any less diligent?

This being said, I still think the only John 3:16 and Psalm 23 that I will EVER remember are those of the KJV!!!

Quote[/b] ]I can however, live in peace until the day of judgement. *God will sort us all out then. *

I have a saying, "Love them all--let God sort 'em out."

If one or more of them, however, were to threaten the lives of my family or myself I would lovingly defend the "gifts" God has given me. *The lives of those God has entrusted me are precious. *I would not hesitate to "pull the trigger."

Short of God asking me [u]personally[/] to "stand down", I will defend what he has given me to protect and defend, no question, no hesitation.