A Personal Look at Racial Preferences

[Terri]

A Personal Look at Racial Preferences

By Bobby Eberle
January 20, 2003
GOPUSA Opinion

As I listened to President Bush's remarks on national television regarding the use of racial preferences at the University of Michigan, I couldn't help but shake with excitement. There are few issues as divisive in this country as race, and there are few issues that touch me as personally.

Throughout my life, I have seen firsthand what racial preferences can do and how they affect individuals and families. No, I haven't been oppressed or "kept down" by "the man," but as someone who is half Hispanic, I have nonetheless seen and felt the emotional and literal effects of judging people by race.

Even early in my childhood, my sisters and I were taught that in order to achieve, you had to work. Hard work, drive, and determination (along with a little bit of smarts) were the keys to success. Never in a million years would race be considered part of that equation. If we kept our noses to the grindstone, we would succeed.

Full Article (http://www.gopusa.com/bobby/bobby_0120.shtml)

Great article, Bobby! I can't imagine why anyone would want to be assessed on anything other than merit. You summed it up beautifully! *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif

[Der Alte]

Great article, Bobby. I'm aftraid that race relations, as we know them will not change in the near future. As long as individuals such as Jesse Jackson and his ilk continue to use race for personnel profit there will never be much progress. To much time is being used to explain why some minorities are not supposed to succeed.

[pRIMrose]

Since I wasn't able to get into the forum this morning, this was the first article I read in the Eagle. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif

If only everyone felt as Bobby Eberle. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif There are times when a man needs a leg up but you can't continue this forever or he becomes dependent and starts believing that he "can't" perform without extra help.

Coming from a tri-ethnic community in Miami, I can tell you that there are minorities in this country who have proved beyond a doubt that hard work and an overwhelming desire to succeed on one's own merits can and does work.

Those that continue to whine and cry about past injustices will forever be stuck in the "victimhood" class. And those who prey on these people will live like kings. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

[conn.servative]

Being mixed myself I couldn't agree with you all more. My father, who is black, is yet another case of hard work paying off. He graduated high school and had his fair shar of jobs until he was able to find his niche. He became a real estate appraiser and eventually started his own company. At one point he employed over 20 people in two offices. That all changed when good ole' Clinton was elected, but that's another story. He now works out of his house, employs my mother as his office manager. More importantly than his wealth, he has a healthy and happy 25+ year marriage, put his 2 sons through college, and has received several community awards from the Police Athletic League, and a local church (of which he is not a member). The most important thing i've learned from my father is that hard work pays off. With hard work and dedication, anything can be achieved.

[Charie]

Conn, you must tell us the story about your father during the Clinton years sometime. I believe this is the second time you mentioned it.

Good for Bobby. I had no idea that he was half Mexican and couldn't care less that he is. It is a well-written article and speaks well for their whole family.

When those with a national identity get into power, it's very hard to refute what they say. And when those powerful, nationally known people discover that they can also garner great wealth spewing their same rhetoric, are they ever going to change? I think not.

I have to believe that Martin Luther King has been spinning in his grave for decades.

[Terri]

Wouldn't it be great if there was someway that people like Conn's father and Bobby's mother, and all the parents who did the same,*could be honored for simply doing what needed to be done and for teaching their children that hard work provides the payoff?

My father taught hard work too, both by example, and by providing opportunities for me to indulge in it.

I remember learning about prejudice from other kids and learning from my mother that it was totally unacceptable to decent people in all circumstances. She had no problem at all passing judgment on those who indulged in it.

Discrimination could be eliminated if there were simply enough mothers who taught preschoolers that all people want the same things from life, feel the same feelings, and deserve the same respect. Maybe even Democrats could have been cured with the right mothers.

[Captain Eagle]

If all of you would insist on keeping the Government out of the Race Business , we would have worked this out years ago. The Democrats start the Class Wars to get you to vote for them. I do not think Ameriacns are Born Bigots. This is a learned behavior taught to us by Jesse Jackson and His Ilk and the Party of Perverts, Prevaractors,and Pornogaphers. Congress has no right to keep this stuff stirred up and the news media is ever worse. Tell Congress you are sick and tired of their BS and let's quit this evil behavior toward Fellow Americans. We are in this together and I suggest to you that I love black Americans and have no use for African Hyphen Americans. If you want to be an African, leave now and go there to live and get yourself chopped up with a Machete' or catch AIDs and die. Or if you are lucky over there, you will starve to death. Any person born in America is very lucky and has the best possible start in life. Why not just be an American and do your very best like we all have to do? What is wrong with that? Jesse Jackson is a bigot of the worst kind because he does it for money. Anyone that can't see through him is pretty stupid!

[conn.servative]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Conn, you must tell us the story about your father during the Clinton years sometime. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I'll see about getting the specifics from my father so that I can give a proper explanation of exactly what happened.

[Terri]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll see about getting the specifics from my father so that I can give a proper explanation of exactly what happened.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Great! That will be interesting. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Bobby]

Just a follow-up to Der Alte's comments...

You're absolutely right. There's big money to be made in keeping the racial flames stoked. If everybody got along, they'd be out of business.

I just wish people would see Jesse Jackson for what he is.

Bobby

[Reccos]

It is disturbing to read Captain Eagle's characterization of the entire continent of Africa and its nations, the people and the reality of life there. Quite shocking!

[QUOTE]If you want to be an African, leave now and go there to live and get yourself chopped up with a Machete' or catch AIDs and die. Or if you are lucky over there, you will starve to death.

[Terri]

Is it news to you Reccos that there is an Aids epidemic and great unrest in Africa?

[Charie]

I really think that it's time we take a good look at what is actually happening in the world, instead of what we wish were happening. There's just way too much political correctness going on.

These problems are sitting like 500 # gorillas sitting in the corner. You can ignore it or throw a sheet over it, but when it finally gets hungry, you'd better pay attention.

I think the Captain's comments are overdrawn and Reccos' don't serve to add anything to a discussion of this problem. Let's dig into this and find out whether or not huge problems exist in Africa or not, without rancor.

Terri, do you think we could put this in a different thread?

[Terri]

Certainly, Cherie. You can start a new topic and frame the discussion the way you would like to. We'll join you there. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Back to the article and the subject of racial identification in this country, I think it's time we quit hyphenating our identity and realize that we are all Americans. That is a very good thing to be.

It isn't only minorities who do this. I've seen a rise in references to European-Americans recently. I hope this doesn't flourish. It's counter-productive.

Would anyone else like to see the boxes that Bobby referred to removed from government forms?

[nekela]

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I give a thumbs up to all you people.
I have seen Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for what they are and I sure don't like it. I consider myself as not being a bigot. I am married to an Okinawan woman and although I was told it would never last when I requested permission to marry her , I am beginning to believe it might. After all we will be celebrating our 44th anniversary come May. I have worked with people of many colors and there were many that I thought of very highly and some I tried not to think of at all. Now of course the same thing applies to many white people I have known and worked along side of. I guess you might say I really am a bigot because I can't stand people who are lazy or depend on someone else to support them. Some people of color I would love to have as neighbors if I could only get rid of some of the white neighbors I have. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Captain Eagle]

Some signs of hope spring here on this Conservitive Forum. Africa is a terrible place and why anyone would want to cling to it is totally beyond me. They murder each other in great numbers and do it every day. They are people who have made no contribution to humanity and die of AIDS by the millions and have spread this horrible disease throughout the world. According to some learned folk, we are all spruing from a black woman in Africa a very long time ago. My mother's maiden name was White and her mother's maiden name was Mann so I am a White- American-Mann. I like the sound of that but don't rub anyones nose in it like the black rub their nose in my face with their long ago and far away ancestry. WE are supposed to be a Melting pot of various people who didn't like the Home Country and came here to be Americans and be unique in this world of people. Why do you deny what has been done to you by Bigots like Al and Jesse? The blacks are the only race that refuses to blend in as everyone else has had to do. I am quite willing to have them as brothers if they will jerk their head out of their butts and be Americans but that seem to be too much to ask of them. Pity. RIP, America........

[heldmyw]

Back to the original thread...

Q: When were Colleges and Universities charged with engineering education opportunities based on skin color?

I thought that education was ideally supposed to be competitive, colorblind and hopefully, affordable, in order to bring the best and brightest students the opportunity to build superior intellect and go on to improve society at large...

The decision to deny one person's dream and hard work in favor of another based on a particular skin color seems unbelievably... well, un-American. Ê Nothing but your performance should be necessary to secure a place.

Nothing.

Worse yet, this institutionalized racism makes suspect the diploma, honors, and credentials of any black person. Ê

Did he/she get into that Medical School on a quota, even though the grades weren't as good as anothers? Ê
Is that Law degree a function of some liberal racial balancing act that merely makes a column of numbers more pleasing to the eye?

And for you. ÊWhen your child is sick, and needs a doctor, does the suspicion that a black doctor may not be as qualified as a non-black doctor affect your choice of a doctor?

What does that do to the countless black people who have &quot;made it the hard way&quot;? You know, the soldiers, sailors, and airmen, the degreed professionals and skilled craftsmen who managed to advance themselves through nothing but intelligence and hard work? ÊThose who are NOT recipients of some &quot;special consideration&quot; in the name of &quot;diversity&quot;?

Of all the forms of racism I can think of, this is one of the most pernicious, unfair and cruel, and I'm sick of seeing it paraded about as some sort of neccessary charity provided at great sacrifice for those poor downtrodden folk who cannot possibly stand on their own merits.
Ê
It is time the Supremes weighed in on this and stomped it thoroughly. Ê

Racism is racism, irrespective of the victim's color.

[BIG CASINO]

Take heart, Eagle, most black Americans are NOT afflicted with 'Opto-Rectalis'! As Americans, they live decient, hard-working lives. They are not stupid nor particularly resentful, and they identify themselves as Americans.
Unfortunatly, a minority of people in our country identify themselves as other than just American, and the troubles this causes tend to redound directly to them. The end result is racial prejudice based on the attitudes of the few being ascribed to the many.

Paddle forward, kids

[Captain Eagle]

Thank you Big Casino. You are the voice of true freedom. I know you are right but we are impaled on the spear of PC and need to be honest with each other and solve these problems without Big Brother who 's agenda is hidden and treacherous. No one wants to take an honest look at anything anymore. If we could do that , we would see the fabric of lies and deciet that has been woven by the people you elect to high office.

[LOCUTUS]

You people are really off your rocker. *The GOP has completely mischaracterized the UM policy for political gain - and you are all buying it without question. *Don't you ever question anything that Bush tells you?

If you listen to &quot;The Shrub&quot;, one gets the impression that Michigan gives extra points for race—and for nothing else. That, of course, is completely untrue—but you won’t ever learn it from Bush&amp;Co. You won’t learn that white kids who come from poverty backgrounds can get those 20 bonus points too. You won’t learn that applicants can get 16 points if they’re from the Upper Peninsula—an area that is mainly white. And you won’t learn that other elements of UM’s system also tend to favor whites. For example, 4 points can go to alumni kids, who are predominantly white. Those 10 points for a rigorous high school? Most often, they will go to kids from the ’burbs or from private schools, who will most often be white. And how about that 12 points for the SAT—a test for which affluent kids can gain special preparation? Why can’t Bush tell you the truth—that whatever we decide about UM’s system, it includes provisions that favor whites as well as that 20 for blacks?

Affirmative action is not a way to discriminate against you poor oppressed white people. It is a way of ensuring that all races get to participate in the American dream - not just rich kids, not just the progeny of the elite. SAT scores are not as important as good grades in high school. The SAT test is also a culturally biased test. Furthermore, great SAT scores do not necessarily translate to good grades - case in point, Bush got a 1206 - well above the national average, yet he was an average student.

By the way, Yale rarely accepts student that make less than 1300 on their SATs. I guess it was okay for them to discriminate against a the kid that got a higher score than Bush but was denied entry.

[Terri]

Normally, the first thing I say to a new member is welcome.

LOCUTUS, you may debate issues here but you may NOT attack members individually or as a whole.

Until racists of all colors treat every person equally things will NOT be better in this country.

It is illogical and unconstitutional to give people more points for the color of their skin than for their test scores.

IF you had taken the time to read this thread you would have seen that not everyone posting here are &quot;poor oppressed white people&quot; as you put it.

We know there are preferences for other reasons. Their value is debatable. Discrimination based on skin color is not.

[conn.servative]

Why take the SAT's if I'm only going to get 12 points for my test scores, and 20 for my race? Admission should not be based on race or financial stability. The financial aid office is responsible for helping those less fortunate afford college.

Locutus-
What about those minorites (such as myself) who's parents need nothing more than a loan to help me through college. Should I get less points because I have parents who can afford a loan for my education? Should I be penalized in the admission process because I'm able to afford an education? Again, let the Financial Aid office determine (on need) who gets how much, not who gets in and who doesn't.

2) What about those minorities, such as myself with a black father and a white mother? I'm no more black, than I am white, and no more white than I am black. I'm an american, no more, no less. Should I only be awarded 10 points because, ironically, my black blood is tainted with white blood?

The point system assigns people grades based on anything but their merit. It tells that we cannot and will not be treated equally.

You misunderstand our problem with the policy. We seek for everyone to be treated fairly. We want a level playing field, with equal opportunity. When does it stop? Should blacks get price breaks on houses, cars, and groceries as well, since after all, we're still oppressed. This program, WHILE IT HAS GOOD INTENTIONS, is, as Bush said, &quot;fundamentally flawed&quot;.

&quot;you people are off your rocker&quot; typical liberal statement when one can't understand the other side of the coin. I know, i used to be one! lol

[Granite River]

LOCUTUS , you talk about all of the points that favor whites but only the 20 points are exclusively for blacks. A black can get all of those other points and then get the 20 black points as well. That is racial discrimination.

[LOCUTUS]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I thought that education was ideally supposed to be competitive, colorblind and hopefully, affordable, in order to bring the best and brightest students the opportunity to build superior intellect and go on to improve society at large[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I think every person of every color would like this to be true. However, we do not live in an ideal society. Most people are not well off. Most people have to work very hard for what little they have.

It would be nice if personal hard work was really all it takes to be successful. This, however is not true. Life is complicated. People get sick. Spouses bail out. Jobs move away. Birth control fails. Cheap apartments turn into parking lots. People with skills, resources, and some luck can adapt on their own. Others need support. This support can come from family, the community, friends, etc.

Affirmative action does not make a student dependent on a lowered standard, it just gives a kid - who would otherwise miss out on the opportunity - the chance at success. Affirmative action might help a kid get his foot in the door, but the kid's hard work is the only thing that will get him a diploma.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Worse yet, this institutionalized racism makes suspect the diploma, honors, and credentials of any black person[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Every black person that has ever gotten a degree has had to work just as hard for it as their non-black counterparts. A degree is not issued based upon the color of ones skin. It is based on years of hard work.

You are trying to misrepresent this issue to suggest that affirmative action would allow a black C student to take a seat in college that a white A student would hold. This is utter nonsense.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did he/she get into that Medical School on a quota, even though the grades weren't as good as anothers?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Most malpractice lawsuits are filed against white doctors. Does that mean that the all white doctors credentials should be questioned? Quotas are illegal. Schools do not use quotas. But even if they did, the quota would not help the kid pass the tests or graduate - much less make it through residency. You are blinded by the right.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is that Law degree a function of some liberal racial balancing act that merely makes a column of numbers more pleasing to the eye?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Where did you get the idea that a degree was issued on anything other than the merit of a massive body of work?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And for you. ÊWhen your child is sick, and needs a doctor, does the suspicion that a black doctor may not be as qualified as a non-black doctor affect your choice of a doctor[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

See the preceding statement regarding malpractice suits.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What does that do to the countless black people who have &quot;made it the hard way&quot;?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

They understand that without affirmative action a lot of prominent black leaders would not have made it into the positions they are currently in. Do you think people like Condoleezza Rice or Colin Powell would have been considered as a possible candidate for their positions if 30 years of affirmative action had not allowed black people to prove their mettle?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You know, the soldiers, sailors, and airmen, the degreed professionals and skilled craftsmen who managed to advance themselves through nothing but intelligence and hard work? [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Affirmative action cannot make an unskilled person a sailor, soldier, airmen, or a degreed professional. It just helps you get your foot in a door that would otherwise slam shut in your face. If you have a degree, I guarantee you that you worked for it ( unless your name is Bush ).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Those who are NOT recipients of some &quot;special consideration&quot; in the name of &quot;diversity&quot;?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Actually the armed forces is one of the biggest proponents of affirmative action. If you ever served, I am sure that you know that the armed forces have people of every color - and every walk of life.

A black person might get a boost on their ASVAB score because of their skin color, but it will not help them to maintain the standards of their MOS. They will do that by hard work alone.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of all the forms of racism I can think of, this is one of the most pernicious, unfair and cruel, and I'm sick of seeing it paraded about as some sort of necessary charity provided at great sacrifice for those poor downtrodden folk who cannot possibly stand on their own merits[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Walk in another man's shoes, bud. Affirmative action is an exceedingly minute factor - most businesses barely practice it ( try counting the ethnic makeup of the people in your office ). The only place that affirmative action seems to matter is in schools - but it won't allow a C student in high school to graduate Cum Laude. It simply gives helps minorities get their foot in the door.

Besides, most people that would benefit from affirmative action are at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. They often cannot afford to pay for the college in which they are accepted - Bush cut funding for student aid programs.

[Terri]

Thanks for toning it down, Locutus! I'm sure a lot of our members will want to discuss this with you. *

Welcome to http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gopusa.gif

We're glad to have you here to discuss this.

[LOCUTUS]

I am sure I will be raked over a lot of coals by all of you.

I like a challenging debate though - I apologize if I sounded rude with the &quot;off your rocker&quot; comment.

[Terri]

Hey, we're pretty forgiving here. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

We're truly glad to have you even though we may disagree on some things. If you are &quot;raked over the coals&quot; it will just be on issues and not personally. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Stop in the Precinct thread (which is our Cafe) and let us get acquainted with you. We talk about everything there.

I don't have time for a long post now but I will assure you of one thing and I think you will find it true of everyone here. We believe that everyone should have a chance in life and should be treated well. Sometimes we differ in the ways we want to see that accomplished but there is no one here who would exclude others based on skin color.

We are a mixed group as to heritage but we are all Americans, well we might have one or two Canadians. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[conn.servative]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bush cut funding for student aid programs[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Federal spending on schools increased 50% under Bush.

I must go eat dinner with the family, but i'd like to continue this later...for now...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You won’t learn that white kids who come from poverty backgrounds can get those 20 bonus points too. You won’t learn that applicants can get 16 points if they’re from the Upper Peninsula—an area that is mainly white. And you won’t learn that other elements of UM’s system also tend to favor whites. For example, 4 points can go to alumni kids, who are predominantly white. Those 10 points for a rigorous high school? Most often, they will go to kids from the ’burbs or from private schools, who will most often be white. And how about that 12 points for the SAT—a test for which affluent kids can gain special preparation? Why can’t Bush tell you the truth—that whatever we decide about UM’s system, it includes provisions that favor whites as well as that 20 for blacks?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

ever notice how many times you say things like &quot;mainly white&quot;, &quot;predominantly white&quot;, &quot;most often be white&quot;. What happens with the exceptions to the rule? The hispanic girl from a mainly/predominantly white area, with affluent parents who are alumni. All things being equal. The determining factor will be race. That is discrimination.

[QUOTE]Most malpractice lawsuits are filed against white doctors. [QUOTE]

I've never had a non-white doctor, and I live in a very intergrated area of Connecticut. If most doctors are white, it's only logical to assume that most lawsuits would be filed against white doctors. This is apart from the real issue.

[LOCUTUS]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Until racists of all colors treat every person equally things will NOT be better in this country.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I could not agree more. But where do you start?

Affirmative action is not perfect. But their are really not any feasible alternatives.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is illogical and unconstitutional to give people more points for the color of their skin than for their test scores.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I am sure you know that SAT tests are culturally biased, and they they do not necessarily have predictive value in the future success of a student. A student can study for the SAT tests - but the knowledge procured will not help him in other areas - it simply means that he can answer the test questions properly. Most of the strategies for SAT mastery rely on quirks in the test - not accumulation of prior knowledge.

I think a greater predictor of student success is their high school GPA.

Even though you want equality, the educational system is anything but equal. Try taking a tour of an inner city school - then take a tour of a suburban school. The difference is black and white - so to speak. There are real differences in the quality of education experienced by a lot of black people. Affirmative action is an attempt to simply let a disadvantaged kid in the door. The kid has to do the work from then onward.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">&quot;poor oppressed white people&quot; as you put it[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I know, I was being sarcastic. Sorry.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We know there are preferences for other reasons. Their value is debatable. Discrimination based on skin color is not.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Well, if all things were equal, I would say you are right. But they are far from equal. Look at the demographics of college students in the U.S.. Minorities are still tremendously underrepresented. Schools in minority districts are still falling apart - and are no where near as well funded as mostly white schools.

If you want equality, try starting at the preschool level. Work your way up from there.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">financial aid office is responsible for helping those less fortunate afford college. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

After they have been admitted - bud. The issue is affirmative action in the admissions policy. Student's applying to UM have to get at least 100 points to enter the school - most get much more that 100 points. If you have a C+ average in a progressive school, a good SAT score will help you pass that 100 point mark. If you are a black kid with a B average, but an average SAT score, you are out of luck without affirmative action.

Affirmative action does not help you beyond getting your foot in the door.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Should I be penalized in the admission process because I'm able to afford an education? [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Well, if you can afford to pay for college rather easily, you probably have had a pretty good history. Your father is in the home. You have sufficient resources for school and extracurricular activities, and if your grades started to slip in high school you could have hired a tutor. You could have afforded to go to a &quot;Sylvan Learning Center&quot; if you really had problems in school.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again, let the Financial Aid office determine (on need) who gets how much, not who gets in and who doesn't. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The problem is that the people that don't have much often cannot get a good education in the first place. They are operating at a disadvantage. If they fight through their disadvantage to make good grades - but not grades as good as their better off counterpart - should they be denied the opportunity to prove themselves?

Again, affirmative action just helps people get their foot in the door. They have to do the rest.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The point system assigns people grades based on anything but their merit. It tells that we cannot and will not be treated equally[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

There are a lot of things that are not equal in America. People that do well in life often have a family structure that is conducive to learning - and they promote those values in their children. People that are disadvantaged or uneducated cannot provide a family atmosphere that is conducive to success. This has a feedback effect across many generations.

Helping disadvantaged people get their foot in the door will not guarantee their success, but with hard work, the student can break the cycle of poverty to which his family would have been doomed. This has a positive feedback effect across many generations.

In the end, a diverse, educated workforce is the best way to ensure success for all of America.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We seek for everyone to be treated fairly[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I understand your problem with the policy. But your idea is based upon a premise that is not true and will not be true in my generation. I would like everyone to be treated fairly - but there is a real socioeconomic disparity in this country between the people that are successful and the people that are not. Success breeds success - failure breeds failure. Without some method of promoting upward mobility, the progress toward a truly diverse and equal populace will slow to a crawl.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We want a level playing field, with equal opportunity[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

But the opportunities are not equal - and the playing field has a gaping hole in it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When does it stop[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Affirmative action is only applicable in limited circumstances - usually in scholastic admissions. Beyond that, it is pretty rare.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Should blacks get price breaks on houses, cars, and groceries as well, since after all, we're still oppressed.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

You know that is not what I am advocating. I am not even saying that we are oppressed. I am saying that capitalism is not inherently moral. Legislation is needed to try and level the playing field. Otherwise populations at the bottom of the ladder will have a much harder fight - over a much longer time - to gain some measure of equality.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This program, WHILE IT HAS GOOD INTENTIONS, is, as Bush said, &quot;fundamentally flawed&quot;. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

A quote from a recipient of affirmative action - nice.

Yes, the system is flawed - but as Republicans often say about foreign policy issues - what is the alternative? Do we stop all consideration of race in college admissions? As the economic disparity grows between races what should we do? Encourage minorities to &quot;work harder&quot;?

Your ideas are admirable, but they are based upon the assumption that hard work equals success. While hard work is definitely part of the equation, I think you are leaving out a lot of the social detritus that has been a part of this country since it began. For many people, all the hard work in the world will not lift them out of the economic doldrums.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LOCUTUS , you talk about all of the points that favor whites but only the 20 points are exclusively for blacks. A black can get all of those other points and then get the 20 black points as well. That is racial discrimination. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

All the student needs is 100 points to get in. If the black kid had a good SAT score, good grades, and was from a good high school, he would already have more than 100 points. His race would be a moot point.

[Terri]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am saying that capitalism is not inherently moral. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

What system is more moral than a system that allows everyone to advance based on their own intelligence and hard work? *

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Even though you want equality, the educational system is anything but equal. *Try taking a tour of an inner city school - then take a tour of a suburban school. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

And this is exactly where school vouchers would help poor people more than those who can live in the suburbs.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There are real differences in the quality of education experienced by a lot of black people.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, and this applies to many groups and is more closely tied to economic status than skin color.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There are a lot of things that are not equal in America. *People that do well in life often have a family structure that is conducive to learning - and they promote those values in their children. *People that are disadvantaged or uneducated cannot provide a family atmosphere that is conducive to success. *This has a feedback effect across many generations.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I agree except I don't think it has to be carried forward across many generations. There are many, many examples of people who came from extreme poverty changing things for their own children.

Preferences based on race are inherently racist and more so to the people receiving the benefit. It says to minorities that they are inferior. That they cannot compete with those of a different color or heritage. It's been made into a culture of it's own in this country and it's time for it to end.

If a student does not have the ability to pass the tests to get into a university then it would be better for said student to get a job and attend a community college for a year or two and improve their skills and then reapply.

It doesn't do anyone a favor to bring them into an educational situation for which they are not prepared.

[conn.servative]

I am not a recipient of affirmative action. I take that as an insult. To tell me that the only reason I was excepted to a private high school, and subsequently college is an attempt to discredit the hard work I put in to achieve the success attained so far. While I doubt this is your intent, I feel that this is another tool that the liberals and race-baiters use to continue the myth that success cannot be attained without affirmative action. I'll come back to this later...

See we both agree that for minorities in this country, it has typically been an uphill batlle. However, I feel the main obstacle in the way for minorities is no longer racism. The obstacles are lack of family structure/support, (we need more fathers) and mostly economic problems (due to many things, but primarily lack of education, consistent employment and drug addiction).

I've seen firsthand the inner-city schools full of good kids in bad environments. I've tutored kids in some of these high schools. You're preaching to the choir. Bush proposes that State colleges accept the top 10% of the students at every high school throughout the state. This program would allow for a diverse student population, who has also shown that they are capable by performing in the upper tier of their school. It doesn't award points based on race, but whether it's an inner-city school, or suburbian school, if the student performs well, the student is rewarded with admission.

You said quotas are illegal. Well discrimination (based on race, sex, age, etc.) is also illegal. You cannot legislate racism out of the mind of a racist. If it's caught, the offender can be punished, but a law isn't going to change their point of view. That may not be the point you argue, but that's the case that Daschle made when he said &quot;Bush must decide whether he's for civil rights and diversity, or against it&quot;. You have done a commendable(spelling ?) job of keeping the issues of AA &amp; civil rights/diversity separate. Too many liberals want them to go hand and hand. It is not that simple.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Quote
financial aid office is responsible for helping those less fortunate afford college.

After they have been admitted - bud. The issue is affirmative action in the admissions policy.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

You're missing my point so i'll move on and conclude....

Back to the insult of Affirmative Action.

It perpetuates the racist belief that minorities are inherently inferior. Whether that is the intent or not, it tells minorities that you can't do it without affirmative action. It tries to tell me that my qualifications are null and void, the only reason i'm a succesful minority is because of affirmative action. The democrats use it as a tool to 1) race-bait and continue the liberal stranglehold over the black race by telling us we can't make it on our own and need them, when it's they who need our votes. And 2) perpetuate the stereotype that the republican party and Bush is out to oppress the black man (see Harry Belafonte). It also continues the misconception that every white personis racist and won't be swayed wihout programming.

When you tell me that everything I've achieved is because of affirmative action, you also make an assumption, that every white person (or minority for that matter who may have hired or admitted me to a job or college) is a racist, and only gave me a shot because programs such as these said they had to. You're failing to recognize not only the good in people, but also the qualifications.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It would be nice if personal hard work was really all it takes to be successful. This, however is not true. Life is complicated. People get sick. Spouses bail out. Jobs move away. Birth control fails. Cheap apartments turn into parking lots. People with skills, resources, and some luck can adapt on their own. Others need support. This support can come from family, the community, friends, etc. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

These problems are not confined to a specific race, and do not justify AA. As a matter of fact, they only show that everyone has issues, each case must be evaluated independently, as no two situations/people are the same. By giving a race points, based on that race (regardless of what other points are handed out), you're essentially saying that minorities are inherently inferior, and will forever be judged as such.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want equality, try starting at the preschool level. Work your way up from there[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> EXACTLY. Couldn't have said it better myself. Scrap this unfair policy, and start focusing on fixing the problems that lead to programs such as this.

One last thing. Ask yourself where blacks would be without the Republican Party (remember Lincoln was a republican). Ask yourself where blacks would be without democrats (instituted housing projects, and allowed welfare to get out of control to the point where too many people are dependant on welfare by choice). Ask yourself where blacks would be without Jesse Jackson &amp; Al Sharpton (and don't give them credit that MLK Jr. deserves). Then ask yourslef where the democrats would be without the black vote. They can literally count on 10% of the vote based on black voters alone, another 10% and they would control Congress &amp; the White House. Do they want blacks to believe that they can make it on our own, or do they want us to believe that we need there programs, and therefore continue to vote for them. Take a long hard look at the democrats programs, not the basis or intents of the programs, but the results.

[Terri]

Great post, Conn!

Bumping the thread!

[pRIMrose]

Ditto here Conn. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif

[Captain Eagle]

I will ask a two question poll. 1. Do you believe in racial discrimination. Most of you will have to answer &quot;NO. 2. Do you believe in affirmitive action? Most of you will answer &quot;YES&quot;. It is the same exact question and I get two opposite answers. That is what we have done to ourselves with the PC world we live in. I have to give two &quot;NO&quot; answers because I could care less about being PC. There is no hope for the brain dead America because we can't take an honest look at any social problem without &quot;Offending&quot; some bunch of &quot;so called&quot; minorities. I don't care who gets offended because as long as we can't get past that, nothing good will happen. Every person in America should be a Majority Player. My daughter made me a button at school that said &quot;Captain Eagle, a Majority of One&quot; She is absolutely right.

[Floridaguy]

Captain, no offense, but where would you get the idea that most posters in this thread would say &quot;yes&quot; that they agree with affirmative action? In fact, Terri's point, conn.servative's, and certainly my own viewpoint, are that we don't agree with racial discrimination or affirmative action, regardless of which term you use. Unless I totally misread this entire thread, only LOCUTUS believes that racial preferences (via affirmative action) are the right course of action for colleges and universities.

I wanted to comment that I thought conn.servative's comments are right on the mark, and as usual, so are Terri's. This has been a very interesting thread, but the &quot;counter point&quot; offered by Locutus, merely reinforces the fact that there should NOT be any preferences in admission policies for skin color. One issue that nobody did point out, and is certainly not unique to U of Michigan, is that many colleges &amp; universities are constantly changing their quotas, every time they re-evaluate which &quot;oppressed&quot; minority has the least representation in their schools. We are focusing on African-Americans, but what about Asians, Hispanics, American Indians, etc.? The truth is, that those institutions of higher learning that maintain preferences for race or ethnicity, are doing so generally at a far greater rate than employers are, even for government jobs. That being the case, then the universities are creating a mindset for eventual shock to those minorities admitted due to quotas, because that &quot;equalizing representation&quot; does not exist in the workplace. You cannot discriminate (in hiring employees) on the basis of race, but there is also no reverse discrimination on the basis of race, either. The time has come for our country to get past this issue, and see beyond the rhetoric of the Sharptons and J. Jacksons in society, and allow minorities to prove that they can and are able to compete with whites, with males, or whatever the &quot;majority&quot; happens to be at the moment. An excellent example of ending racial preferences for the betterment and success of the minorities the system was designed to promote, is that of One Florida by Governor Jeb Bush. 2 years after ending racial preferences in the university system in Florida, there are more minorities, particularly African-Americans, enrolled in the colleges than there were under the preferences system. It was a victory for those who knew all along that minorities do NOT need an extra advantage in order to be accepted at high numbers into colleges and universities based solely on merit, grades, tests, activities, etc.

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif

[LOCUTUS]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What system is more moral than a system that allows everyone to advance based on their own intelligence and hard work? [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

People who believe that capitalism is inherently moral tend to believe there's a necessary connection between accepting markets as the best means of organizing economic life, and accepting the results that markets produce as making moral sense. To see things differently, they argue, would be to deny that there is any moral bias in favor of markets in the first place -- so why would we organize economic life around a free exchange among free people?

On this view, market outcomes reward virtues and qualities that it is right to reward -- things like work, responsibility, thrift, innovation and risk-taking. You can reject markets, they say, but you can't accept them (as most Americans do) and then deny that their distributional results have some claim to being considered presumptively fair.

However, markets are an entirely human construct with an infrastructure of property law, contract law, central banking and myriad other mechanisms devised by the mind of man to serve human purposes and social goals.

The distribution of income in free markets is affected dramatically by factors beyond the virtues cited above -- such as a person's inherited brains, health, talents, wealth and looks, as well as the family into which one is born and the early schooling one is given.

These are things for which people can't take credit or be blamed. Given how heavily these morally arbitrary factors influence the distribution of income, it's silly to think that market outcomes could be presumptively moral.

Since markets are the creation of man, moreover, man can legitimately tamper with their results to arrive at a situation that seems more just or socially desirable. This isn't socialism. It's entirely consistent with wanting, in the main, to harness market forces for the growth and innovation they deliver to society and the personal virtues they promote.

Affirmative action and other social programs are simply a way to bring the virtues of capitalism to all people - not just people that are already well off.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And this is exactly where school vouchers would help poor people more than those who can live in the suburbs.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

How many nice private schools are located in inner cities? If we gave vouchers to students, but the poorer students cannot afford a car ride or a taxi ride out to the suburban private school, are we going to bus them all? The idea of vouchers presupposes that all people can easily get their kids to school - and that everybody has a car.

A working poor person without a car could not do anything with a voucher - so her kids would have to go to the already under funded poor public school - that incidentally lost half its funding to pay for vouchers.

This is akin to telling the working poor &quot;Let them eat cake.&quot;

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, and this applies to many groups and is more closely tied to economic status than skin color. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Affirmative action also applies to many groups - not just races. If you read my initial post, you'll see that a kid from a poor district could also get the 20 points that a minority kid would get. Furthermore, the poverty rate among minorities is much higher than the poverty rate among white people. The average salary of a white person is much higher than the average salary of a minority person. Economic status and skin color often go hand in hand.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree except I don't think it has to be carried forward across many generations. There are many, many examples of people who came from extreme poverty changing things for their own children.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

For every person that started with nothing and became wealthy within his or her lifetime, I can show you ten people that only did incrementally better or worse than their parents did. Success is just not that easy. If you were born poor, you will likely die poor. If you were born rich, you will likely die rich. Very few people become rich without the support of their families, their communities, and a healthy dose of luck.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Preferences based on race are inherently racist and more so to the people receiving the benefit. It says to minorities that they are inferior[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Are you kidding? Preferences based on race may be racist ( Note: white people and women benefit from affirmative action, too ) in the strict sense that they reference a person's race, but they reflect the reality of racial socioeconomic inequality in this country. I am not saying that it is a perfect system, but without affirmative action a lot of people that would never have had a chance of attending college, got in.

Affirmative action does not imply that minorities are inferior - the minority student still has to work his/her butt off to get a degree. AA simply reflects the real socioeconomic disparity that we face in America.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> That they cannot compete with those of a different color or heritage. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I disagree, they still have to work for their degree. Affirmative action is not going to help a C student get on the honor role.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's been made into a culture of it's own in this country and it's time for it to end.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

What, then is your alternative? I am sure you are probably saying, &quot;Let the people that work hard to get good grades succeed&quot;. You are denying the fact that not all kids have the proper nutrition they need, up to date books, a text book of their own, a stable home environment, a school that is structurally sound, competent teachers, and a family structure that is supportive of education.

You might not think that all of those things matter and that kids can overcome those hardships. A few of them do. But they often have lower standardized test scores than their more affluent peers. They often do not have a cornucopia of extracurricular activities to pad their application. The school they attended may not be highly regarded in the eyes of a college admissions representative. Without affirmative action these hypothetical kids may never get to go to college.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If a student does not have the ability to pass the tests to get into a university then it would be better for said student to get a job and attend a community college for a year or two and improve their skills and then reapply.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I agree to a certain extent. If a student's high school GPA was poor or average I would say that is a good idea. But if a student's GPA is excellent, but they did badly on a culturally biased standardized test, should they be excluded from attending the school? If they had a high GPA but had no time for extracurricular activities, should they be excluded? AA will not help a D student attend college. AA will help an A student without a great SAT score or lots of extracurricular activities get his foot in the door.

Again, the kid has to do the work - AA does not promise or guarantee success.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">attempt to discredit the hard work I put in to achieve the success attained so far. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

It is funny that you say that. A lot of conservatives like to characterize affirmative action as an insult to all the hard work that makes a person a success. This is completely baseless. Affirmative action just cracks the door - you have to do all of the hard work to succeed. You never hear republicans say that the benefits they give their kids are an insult to them. George Bush Sr. does not say that he helped George Jr. become successful. But George was born on third base - making it home was easier than a kid that was born destitute. No one should be discrediting anyone's hard work - affirmative action just helps even the playing field. Your work is still commendable.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">While I doubt this is your intent, I feel that this is another tool that the liberals and race-baiters use to continue the myth that success cannot be attained without affirmative action. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

That is a mischaracterization of my position and you know it. I never once said that success cannot be attained without Affirmative Action. I am not a race-baiter - please don't put a label on me.

Before affirmative action was instituted, there were very few minority people in colleges and universities. Even with affirmative action in place, minority enrollment in institutes of higher education is not proportional to their relative populations. If you think this disparity is only due to minorities that don't know how to work hard, then I guess nothing will convince you that getting in to college takes more than hard work. If you think that there are real socioeconomic and cultural differences that favor well-off white people in this society, then affirmative action might be an acceptable way to level the playing field. I guess it depends on where you fall in the spectrum.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However, I feel the main obstacle in the way for minorities is no longer racism. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I can't drive through some neighborhoods without getting pulled over. Black people are more than 10 times more likely to be in prison some time in their lifetime than white people. Black people have a harder time getting jobs than white people. Black people have a harder time getting home loans, college loans, and car loans than white people. America is still pretty racist. It is not as out in the open as it was 30 years ago, but it is certainly there.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The obstacles are lack of family structure/support, (we need more fathers) and mostly economic problems (due to many things, but primarily lack of education, consistent employment and drug addiction)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

For someone that is claiming to be black, you sure have a negative view of black people. I know that the media loves to characterize black men as all having 10 babies from 10 different women - paying no child support , mind you - but this is the exception, not the rule.

Yes, 50% of all marriages end in divorce, but most black men stay support their kids, and do their best to raise them - whether they are in the home or not.

I am surprised that you not that a lot of the economic disparity among different ethnic groups might be due to lack of education. This is the biggest factor in success. Have you ever been to a predominantly black school in an inner city? I grew up in one - and I can tell you - they are not nice. I only had one book that was mine alone - the other text books we had to share. In the winter, it would get so cold in the building that you had to wear a coat inside. When my mother got a job at Monsanto, we moved to a predominantly white suburb. The difference was black and white - so to speak.

But the structure of school funding couldn't favor well off white districts, could they? I thought racism was not an obstacle anymore.

The drug abuse comment really irks me. Apparently Bill O'Reilly forgot to mention the fact that study after study confirms that black people and white people use drugs at the same rate. A lot of drug sales happen in the inner cities, but that has a lot to do with the economic blight of the area to begin with. If a kid has no hope, no job, and no prospects - how is he supposed to react to a guy driving a Benz? In the hood, nothing pays better than selling drugs. I think drugs should be legalized, by the way - but that is a discussion for another thread.

Consistent employment is not what it used to be. Ask any market fundamentalist what kind of wages a company will pay to an unskilled workforce in an economically depressed area with high unemployment. Minimum wage can't pay the rent AND the electric.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've seen firsthand the inner-city schools full of good kids in bad environments.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

This is the first statement I agree with.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bush proposes that State colleges accept the top 10% of the students at every high school throughout the state. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Not only would this be impractical, it would be unrealistic. It is worse than affirmative action. The top 30% of a progressive school might have higher test scores and GPAs than the top 10% of the worst high school in the state. Should the 20% below the top 10% in the progressive school be excluded from attending the state run college? Besides, the only kids that are going to go on to college from poor districts are already the top kids in their class. Affirmative action will not get a D student in to college!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> a law isn't going to change their point of view. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Tell that to the black people that were given the right to vote - and the women who were also given the right to vote. A law will not change a person's point of view, but laws are the constructs that govern our society. Laws change societies point of view - individuals are free to continue with their own points of view.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That may not be the point you argue, but that's the case that Daschle made when[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I am not a cartoon and neither are you. Both us us can think for ourselves. Daschle is a politician and he tells people what they want to hear - he often inflames opinions or jumps on issues that are not really important. I am not Tom Daschle. I have many beliefs that he does not. I do not assume that you are Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly.

If you think that politicians are playing politics, well all I can say is, &quot;No Duh&quot;. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Both sides are trying to throw around this issue, not just democrats.

Don't you think it is convenient for Bush to come out against affirmative action shortly after he insulted his core constituency by stabbing Trent Lott in the back? Bush and Daschle are both politicians. They are both opportunists. Their obfuscation of the issues - from both perspectives - gives democracy a black eye.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You're missing my point so I'll move on and conclude....
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I am pretty clear on your point of view. My father shares it - I have had this discussion with him more times than I can count.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It perpetuates the racist belief that minorities are inherently inferior.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Hogwash. Affirmative action just helps you get your foot in the door. The same way that having a wealthy alumni parent helps well off kids get their foot in the door. The student still has to work to get a degree. AA will not get a student a degree.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it tells minorities that you can't do it without affirmative action.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Wrong. It acknowledges that there is a real difference between the opportunities that white people have and the opportunities that minorities have. Affirmative action will not help a student get a degree. If a student graduates, the student's success was due to his or her hard work. Affirmative action's impact ended the moment the kid was accepted in the school.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> It tries to tell me that my qualifications are null and void,[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

This sounds like a personal issue to me. I know I would not have gotten my MBA had it not been for my hard work. Whether I benefited from affirmative action or not, I earned my degree.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> when it's they who need our votes.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

That is like saying that it is a bad thing that Republicans need rural white males in order to win an election. A politician may need a vote, but why would you vote for something you did not agree with. I understand that democrats need black people, but they also have a more progressive platform than republicans ( personally I think that most current democrats are just republican lite ). If they had a myopic and closed minded perspective about the world, then I think rural white males would vote for them.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">perpetuate the stereotype that the republican party and Bush is out to oppress the black man[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I think the republican part is out to oppress poor people, not just black people. Seriously though, if you look at the voting record of most republicans for the past 30 years, you will see a real trend of votes against minority causes. This is not some propaganda created by the mythical &quot;liberal media&quot; - this is thie voting record.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It also continues the misconception that every white personis racist and won't be swayed without programming.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Nobody thinks that you can legislate personal opinions. You cannot legislate morality either - but the GOP certainly tries to. You can create laws and policies that help level the playing field, but you cannot make bad player play well. You can create a law that helps people succeed, but they will succeed based on the merit of their work.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You're failing to recognize not only the good in people, but also the qualifications. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

If you have read anything I wrote, you will see that I said, time and time again - that affirmative action only helps get your foot in the door. All of your work from that point forward is what will get you a degree. Your work is what qualifies you - not the way you got to work.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> you're essentially saying that minorities are inherently inferior, and will forever be judged as such.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Minorities are not inherently inferior, but our economic system in America is inherently unfair. Poor people and minorities have to work much harder to get a decent education. If you don't take the disparity in our system into account when you are dolling out admission slips, the disparity is bound to grow.

Having doctors, lawyers, scientists, accountants, etc in every community benefits the community. It gives young people a goal to which they can aspire. It increases the access minority communities have with educated people, and it fosters the further progress of minority peoples toward a truly equal tomorrow. Affirmative action is a way of promoting black education - making it more accessible. It is not perfect, but the alternative has been tried. Without it, the progress of minorities in this country will grind to a crawl.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Scrap this unfair policy, and start focusing on fixing the problems that lead to programs such as this[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

What do we do in the interim? Sure, we can scrap the policy now, and maybe revamp the public school system ( though I doubt it with the Shrub at the helm ). But what do we do with the kids that are still in a failing system? How do we make school funding more equal across socioeconomic spectra? Soon you'll be crying &quot;class worfare&quot; or &quot;communist redistribution of income&quot;.

You can't have it both ways.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ask yourself where blacks would be without the Republican Party [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

You have got to be kidding me. You might as well ask me about how black people benefited from the Whig party. The party of Lincoln is a slogan, a snappy phrase to put on a bumper sticker. It has nothing to do with the beliefs of the republican party or Lincoln's politics for that matter. In case you were wondering, Lincoln did not free the slaves as some altruistic gesture of good will . He freed the slaves in the confederacy ( which was not even abiding by his law at the time ) with the emancipation proclamation - largely as a way of disrupting the southern economy and giving a moral argument for the preservation of the union. But this is all beside the point.

Lincoln could not have foreseen the position the United States would come to hold. The issues in his day were totally different than the issues of today. Republicans that use this as an argument are really grabbing at straws. You might was well say that Jesus was a republican.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">instituted housing projects, and allowed welfare to get out of control to the point where too many people are dependant on welfare by choice[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Well, that cinches it. I cannot believe you are black - this is the most racist set of comments I have ever heard ( from a guy claiming to be black ). First of all, the social safety net is not a black program. There are more white people on welfare than black people. Very very few people are dependent on welfare by choice. It is not a nice life. Do you really think that welfare recipients are out having a party on the public dime? By the way, welfare was never out of control. The &quot;welfare queen&quot; was a myth created by the GOP to make welfare look like some burgeoning behemoth filled with corruption and greed. In reality if you scrapped welfare altogether, and gave back all the welfare money as a tax cut, the impact on your paycheck would be negligible. It is a very small program compared to say - the Department of Defense.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ask yourself where blacks would be without Jesse Jackson &amp; Al Sharpton [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

You cannot be black. Most black people know that Al Sharpton is a joke. Those people are like black versions of Steve Forbes or Bill O'Reilly - but they do not have TV shows or magazines. The civil rights movement was not a success for or brought to us by Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. The civil rights movement was the result of the work of thousands of individuals putting their time, energy, and sometimes their lives on the line. I feel insulted that you would even say what you said.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They can literally count on 10% of the vote based on black voters alone, another 10% and they would control Congress &amp; the White House. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Without white hicks, the republican party would be sunk. You can break any political party into its levels of constituents, but that does not mean that the issues the party stands for are not valid. This is a weird sort of straw man. Are you implying that the black votes are somehow second class votes?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do they want blacks to believe that they can make it on our own, or do they want us to believe that we need there programs, and therefore continue to vote for them.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

What is with the &quot;Us&quot; and &quot;them&quot;. Black people are all individuals. They can also be fooled by flaming rhetoric and divisiveness by both parties. But when you boil it all down - and take away the rhetoric, you are left with the policies, and the realities of the world. If you do not write your policies with regard to the realities of the world, you will never be able to solve any problems - you just create new ones.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Take a long hard look at the democrats programs, not the basis or intents of the programs, but the results.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Well, Jim Crowe laws are gone. Affirmative action has helped diversify higher education. The equal rights amendment was passed. We have a national holiday honoring a hero. All in all, I think that black people have come a long way.

Affirmative action is a temporary measure. In a few decades, with some progressive policies in place, we should be able to get rid of it. It is not a perfect system. But it is better than what we had before. I guess, with politicians, that is all you can expect.

[LOCUTUS]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is no hope for the brain dead America because we can't take an honest look at any social problem without &quot;Offending&quot; some bunch of &quot;so called&quot; minorities[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

What is your alternative? Let the markets decide? If this country was really a meritocracy, George Bush would not have been admitted into Yale and he certainly would not have made it into Harvard. I know that this argument is a straw man of sorts, but the point is valid. For years, one group of people has leveraged their power and control for their own benefit. The result is a huge disparity between the rich and the poor, and between white people and &quot;minorities&quot;.

Don't worry, it won't be around forever. It won't help a D student get a degree. It won't keep your kid from attending college. Affirmative action is just one imperfect way of trying to level the playing field.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but the &quot;counter point&quot; offered by Locutus, merely reinforces the fact that there should NOT be any preferences in admission policies for skin color.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I really did not expect any of the loyal to be converted. I feel like Satan worshipper at a Pentecostal Revival.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">colleges &amp; universities are constantly changing their quotas[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Colleges an Universities do not use quotas. They may give extra points to certain groups based on ethnicity, economic conditions, clubs they belong to, SAT scores, etc - but they do not say, &quot;We need 5 Latinos this semester&quot;.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The truth is, that those institutions of higher learning that maintain preferences for race or ethnicity, are doing so generally at a far greater rate than employers are, even for government jobs.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Most employers do not use affirmative action - this is a common piece of GOP propaganda. The government, however, does use affirmative action.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">creating a mindset for eventual shock to those minorities admitted due to quotas[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I love it when white people talk about black people as though we are children. Every black kid in America understands what racism is. We all get a healthy dose of it. Black people are not shocked that racism exists - we have plenty of personal experience in the matter.

What you are saying seems to be &quot;If we let these black people into college they won't understand it when they can't get a job in the real world&quot;. Unfortunately, every black person understands the reality of race in America.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The time has come for our country to get past this issue, [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I would like for our country to get past this issue, too. White people are still in control of everything, you are in no danger of loosing control. I don't know why you think it is such a bad thing to even the playing field when it comes to education. Are you afraid that your white kid's seat at college will be taken by some stupid black kid?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You cannot discriminate (in hiring employees) on the basis of race, but there is also no reverse discrimination on the basis of race, either.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Two researchers, Marianne Bertrand of the University of Chicago and Sendhil Mullainathan of M.I.T. conducted an experiment to test whether employers discriminated against African American job applicants. The professors found that applicants with so-called White names were almost 50 percent more likely to be called for an interview, than those applicants with so-called Black names. Aside from the names, the submitted resumes were identical, with the phantom White and Black applicants having the same exact experience, education and skills.

I know you don't want to think that racial bias exists in America, but it does.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">allow minorities to prove that they can and are able to compete with whites,[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Again, talking about us like we are children. Let me try and say this one more time. Affirmative action only helps a person get their foot in the door. The person has to compete with whites and everybody else from that point forward.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">there are more minorities, particularly African-Americans, enrolled in the colleges than there were under the preferences system[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, 37 more out of 18527 students. Before Bush's plan minority enrollment was at 36.5%. After, it was at 36.7%. The problem is that the program has decreased the number of females (also recipients of affirmative action) in Florida State Universities.

The number of women starting their first year at Florida's 11 universities declined by seven-tenths of a percent, from 57.2 percent to 56.5 percent, during the same period.

But, reading what you wrote, you would think that Jeb Bush's plan was an unqualified success.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was a victory for those who knew all along that minorities do NOT need an extra advantage in order to be accepted at high numbers into colleges and universities based solely on merit, grades, tests, activities, etc.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I guess women still need help, though. Don't you question what you read?

Incidentally, Florida has a huge number of minorities in it. It would be pretty odd if Florida did not have a lot of minority applicants. I wonder what the result would be in Minnesota.

You all know that indicating your race on a college application is voluntary. If you are worried that your kid will not get in to college - check that he is a black kid. He might even get in if he is a D student - I mean, black people are pretty dim, they need a lot of help.

[Terri]

Locutus, there is just one thing that is going to make a difference for you and that is losing your skincolor biased view of life.

One question, what system of government do you prefer?

Please stop saying that conn.servative is not black. Respect what he tells you and stick to the issues and not personalities.

Captain, here are my votes on your poll.

#1. NO

#2. NO

[conn.servative]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote *
While I doubt this is your intent, I feel that this is another tool that the liberals and race-baiters use to continue the myth that success cannot be attained without affirmative action. *


That is a mischaracterization of my position and you know it. *I never once said that success cannot be attained without Affirmative Action. *I am not a race-baiter - please don't put a label on me. *
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The first sentence of that paragraph was *designed to not put a label on you, I'm arguing the point made by the majority of democrats who support AA.



</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote *
However, I feel the main obstacle in the way for minorities is no longer racism. *


I can't drive through some neighborhoods without getting pulled over. *Black people are more than 10 times more likely to be in prison some time in their lifetime than white people. *Black people have a harder time getting jobs than white people. *Black people have a harder time getting home loans, college loans, and car loans than white people. *America is still pretty racist. *It is not as out in the open as it was 30 years ago, but it is certainly there.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

You have said it yourself that Race follows the socioeconomic situation closely. *Could it be that the reason blacks have harder times getting loans is due to bad credit? *I'm afraid that we're still at the point where everytime a black person is turned down for a job, or a loan they assume it's because they're black. *Just because blacks are 10 times more likely to be imprisoned doesn't mean that they were only imprisoned because they're black. *Maybe they are also 10 times more likely to committ a crime due to lack of opportunities. *By helping some students get into college, will that solve the crime problem of the inner-city? *Will that stop the white kids from driving in to buy drugs? *You must know good as well as I do that the majority of the kids who end up career criminals start out before they even know what an SAT test is. *Furthermore they don't care. *Kids as young as 12 &amp; 13 are out selling drugs, will AA help them? *This band-aid to a greater problem isn't helping, that is to say, not enough good comes out of it to deny the fact that it puts races on a point system. *Yes racism is out there, it always will be, but AA will do nothing to help fight that. *



</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For someone that is claiming to be black, you sure have a negative view of black people. *I know that the media loves to characterize black men as all having 10 babies from 10 different women - paying no child support , mind you - but this is the exception, not the rule.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Are you serious? *If there was going to be a white person claiming to be black, they'd be a democrat. *Your argument (while it basically comes down to a difference of opinion) is too well thought out for you to be THAT ignorant to tell me I'm not black. *Had you read prior posts, you'd see that I have a black father and white mother. *No I'm not black, but i'm also not white. *I've been on the free lunch program and in private school, you can question my beliefs and opinions, but don't question my authenticity. *This is not some immature posting board where we type obscenities at eachother for sh!ts and giggles. *Do not insult my integrity or the integrity of this board.

Mind you, I know this is not the rule, however do not tell me that birth control is not a problem in areas of economic poverty. *(white or black) *and do not tell me that the system is not abused (by both white and black). *I have too many friends, co-workers, and several family members who have abused the system or know abortion as the only logical form of birth control. *Do not ignore a problem simply because it does not put the black race into a favorable light. *I'm not saying what you implied, and no this is not a problem confined to blacks only. *But by building stronger families, and a stronger support system blacks can help themselves. *You know this to be true, you've said it yourself that people need support. *AA shouldn't be that crutch, it should be our family. *Otherwise the problem has not been solved, and it will continue. *

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am surprised that you not that a lot of the economic disparity among different ethnic groups might be due to lack of education. *This is the biggest factor in success. *Have you ever been to a predominantly black school in an inner city?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I've noted this before to you. *Since you continually question my integrity....while I was in high school I tutored for the kids, through the Police Athletic League at the Hartford Church of Christ in the Frog Hollow(mostly Latino) section of Hartford, CT. *One of the poorest sections of the City, with the highest drug/crime rate. *I also tutored at the Martin Luther King Elementary School, again for the kids but, through my high school volunteer program. *This school is in Hartford's &quot;North End&quot;, a neighborhood plagued by economic struggles and violence. *I don't have a negative view of blacks, as you say. *I have a realistic view of the problems that plague many of our inner-cities though. *If you want to talk about socio-economic problems of blacks, surely you'll want to include the afore-mentioned, unless you blame everything on racism?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not only would this be impractical, it would be unrealistic. *It is worse than affirmative action. *The top 30% of a *progressive school might have higher test scores and GPAs than the top 10% of the worst high school in the state. *Should the 20% below the top 10% in the progressive school be excluded from attending the state run college? Besides, the only kids that are going to go on to college from poor districts are already the top kids in their class. *Affirmative action will not get a D student in to college!
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I said the top students would be accepted, nobody said the 20% in your example would be excluded, they just wouldn't be guaranteed admittance, and why do you care anyway? *You don't care who's excluded under affirmative action so long as it helps &quot;get a foot in the door&quot;. *

My point is there are far too many variables to look at an entire race, and say &quot;give them 20 points&quot;. *Maybe a white person had both parents in the house. *But maybe one was a drunk who liked to beat his wife and kids. *They were affluent, well-educated, and on the exterior appeared to be a functional family. *That kid isn't going to put on his transcript that he had a father who abused him physically, verbally, maybe even sexually. *But you want to make the assumption that because his parents are well off &quot;he started out on third base&quot;. *Yet despite going to bed listening to his mother being beaten every night, this kid has managed a C average. *Under your system, another C student would get in, because he's black. *Maybe this black student had to endure worse, but maybe he didn't. *We'll never know, and therefore should treat each case, each student individually. *Not as a whole. *AA treats blacks as a whole. *We have proven today that you must take each case seperately. *You refuse to accept the fact that I'm a minority because of my point of view. *You would gladly accept that 20 points. *I would tell the U of M to shove it up it's ---. *But despite our differing views, they seek to treat us the same. *That's what it boils down to for me. *I don't want to be put into a category to be judged. *Maybe that's because of my mixed heritage, but so be it. *

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But the structure of school funding couldn't favor well off white districts, could they? *I thought racism was not an obstacle anymore.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The money will go to where it comes from. *I do not live in Hartford. *I do not want to pay taxes in Hartford. *If the state wants to appropriate my state taxes so that the funding in the schools is fair, I'm all for that. *But I pay taxes to the Town of Windsor, so that I can have a beautiful town of Windsor. *If I wanted to live in Hartford and pay taxes to Hartford, then I would do that. *This problem is not racist, it is simply economic. *For me it is illogical to want to pay a greater share of taxes only to see less money come back to my community. *I would proprose that the taxes be distributed to the school districts by student population. *Those with the most students, get the most money. *This is only for education purposes so that our schools are fair and equal. *So that each public school student has the same education. *Of course there will always be a disparity among teachers, what to do about that? *Some of my conservative cohorts i'm sure will disagree.

There are other problems that affect our students as well, which you cannot ignore and AA cannot resolve. *There is an inferiority complex in the black community, and it can be seen often in school. *It is not the downfall of the black race, but it certainly is relevant, and for you to ignore would be silly. *The attitude that success is equal to selling-out. *The attitude that learning, and excelling in school is, for lack of a better phrase, not cool. *

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A lot of drug sales happen in the inner cities, but that has a lot to do with the economic blight of the area to begin with. *If a kid has no hope, no job, and no prospects - how is he supposed to react to a guy driving a Benz? *In the hood, nothing pays better than selling drugs. *I think drugs should be legalized, by the way - but that is a discussion for another thread.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, selling drugs would be the &quot;easy&quot; (not to say it's easy persay, but for the amount of money that can be made, in a short amount of time, i say it's &quot;easy&quot;). *He's going to react the way an kid would react. *That's why there must be parents, or some sort of community support group there to explain that drug dealer's typically either retire when they're sent to jail, or killed. *There needs to be someone there to explain to the kid that life is long, at least it can be, and with hard work and diligence success can be attained. *Too many kids want the &quot;easy&quot; way out. *AA will do nothing to solve this problem. *

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seriously though, if you look at the voting record of most republicans for the past 30 years, you will see a real trend of votes against minority causes[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Check the voting record during the civil rights era. *More republicans voted for civil rights issues than democrats. *Dem-Al Gore Sr., Dem-Sen. Byrd and their democratic cronies voted against the issues raised during the civil rights movement. *And this was well after Lincoln. *You're under the assumption that the civil rights movement was supported in congress by more democrats than republicans, you're wrong. *

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote *
instituted housing projects, and allowed welfare to get out of control to the point where too many people are dependant on welfare by choice


Well, that cinches it. *I cannot believe you are black - this is the most racist set of comments I have ever heard ( from a guy claiming to be black ). *First of all, the social safety net is not a black program. *There are more white people on welfare than black people. Very very few people are dependent on welfare by choice. *It is not a nice life. *Do you really think that welfare recipients are out having a party on the public dime? [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

okay, you're right, if you say so, then i'm not black, you would know because you disagree, therefore, i cannot be black. *it doesn't change the facts. *yes there are more whites on welfare than blacks. *there are more whites than blacks. *the percentage of blacks on welfare is higher than the percentage of whites. *i never said it was a nice life. *the welfare system has helped countless people (whatever race) to stay on their feet while they struggled to pay the bills. *it simply needs to be refined. *don't tell me there aren't people out there (white or black) collecting their checks, while being paid under the table, or even illegally. I know some of them, but you'll probably tell me that isn't true as well. *

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote *
They can literally count on 10% of the vote based on black voters alone, another 10% and they would control Congress &amp; the White House. *


Without white hicks, the republican party would be sunk. *You can break any political party into its levels of constituents, but that does not mean that the issues the party stands for are not valid. *This is a weird sort of straw man. *Are you implying that the black votes are somehow second class votes? *
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

&quot;White Hicks&quot; *and I'm a racist? *I have relatives who are some of those &quot;white hicks&quot;, they listen to country music and don't care what color of skin I am, why do you call them white hicks? *You demand equality, while supporting policies and practicing name-calling that only serves to further divide the races. *This is what the bottom line is for me. *Treat everyone, regardless of race, as an individual and judge them on their merit, because we don't know what they had to overcome to get to their point in life. *Everyone deals with their own problems, they may not always be financial. *

Second class votes? *you're reading into that way too much. *My point is that the democratic party needs blacks, more than blacks need the dems. *Contrary to second-class votes, i think the black vote is, if anything, more important in that the black vote is almost always toward democrats. *My point was that with another 10% *of the vote(regardless of where it comes from), the democrats could control the white house and congress. *I was simply trying to put the value of the black vote into perspective, not say that it's second class.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> You can create a law that helps people succeed, but they will succeed based on the merit of their work.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Instead of creating a law to help them succeed (which as a byproduct could, not will, but could lead to someone else's failure) why don't you focus your attention on what caused the playing field to be skewed in the first place. Focus on solving the problems. *What good is being admitted to college for that &quot;d&quot; student who is not prepared for college and, rather, more likely to fail. *Prepare the kids for school, so they won't need AA!!!!


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote *
Ask yourself where blacks would be without Jesse Jackson &amp; Al Sharpton *


You cannot be black. *Most black people know that Al Sharpton is a joke. *Those people are like black versions of Steve Forbes or Bill O'Reilly - but they do not have TV shows or magazines. *The civil rights movement was not a success for or brought to us by Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. *The civil rights movement was the result of the work of thousands of individuals putting their time, energy, and sometimes their lives on the line. *I feel insulted that you would even say what you said.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I know Al Sharpton is a joke. *I know that most people know Al Sharpton is a joke. *But it doesn't change the fact that more often than not, they are paid more respect to than Colin Powell. *You'll never hear anyone call Sharpton &amp; Jackson &quot;house-slave(s)&quot;. *The most disrespectful thing you can say to another black man. *Yet that's what Harry Belafonte called our Secretary of State. *Jackson &amp; Sharpton have traditionally received volumes of support from black communities, regardless of the fact that we know them as jokes. *That doesn't change the fact they still claim to represent the black race, and that we still allow them to. *

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Affirmative action is a temporary measure. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Are you so sure? *How can you be?

You have said it yourself time and again, that AA doesn't guarantee success, it only guarantees your foot in the door. *That is why I say focus on solving the problems that lead to AA. *AA is like treatment for a disease, not a cure, just treatment. *That's why I think democrats are out to oppress blacks. *Their policies cater to blacks, but never solve any of the problems that blacks face.

Again, I haven't attacked your integrity, credibility, or insulted your relatives. *I'd appreciate it if you treated me with the same respect.

[Charie]

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/yelclap.gif *Conn, you are one http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif dude! * http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif

[Captain Eagle]

Amen to the cool DUDE. Way to go, Conn. Some are educated way beyond the limits of their intelligence and you are not the one I am referring to.