Illinois Governor Pardons Four Death Row Inmates [Archive]

Terri

01-11-2003, 12:00 AM

AP
Fox News
January 10, 2003

CHICAGO — With just three days left in office, Gov. George Ryan on Friday pardoned four death row inmates he said were tortured by Chicago police into falsely confessing in the 1980s, declaring their cases "perfect examples of what is so terribly broken about our system."

Ryan announced the pardons at the end of his three-year campaign to reform Illinois' capital punishment system, which began when he declared a moratorium on executions in January 2000. He didn't seek a second term and leaves office Monday.

The Republican governor said he will announce Saturday whether he will commute the sentences of 140 other death row inmates to life in prison.

Ryan pardoned Madison Hobley, Stanley Howard, Aaron Patterson and Leroy Orange, saying police tortured them into confessing to murders they had not committed. Each was on death row for at least 12 years; Orange was on death row the longest, more than 17 years.

Full Story (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,75170,00.html )

pRIMrose

01-11-2003, 06:18 AM

This is why I do not support the death penalty. You can't correct a mistake once you've killed the accused.

However, this whole thing smells to high heaven. A corrupt police force, dealing with corrupt criminals and a corrupt, or at the very least negligent, governor.

That said, I support life with no parole.

Makes you wonder why we bother having trials. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A number of Ryan's close advisers have been indicted, and federal prosecutors have alleged the governor knew of attempts to conceal potential wrongdoing from investigators. Ryan has not been charged.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

Saber

01-11-2003, 08:09 AM

Wow.....country music and the death penalty....the only two things I've found so far that we disagree on! LOL

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can't correct a mistake once you've killed the accused.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Here's my thoughts on that....Has there ever been ONE person wrongfully executed? If so....I've NEVER heard about it. Yes, there have been people whose sentences have been overturned, but to me, that just proves that the system works!!!!

George Ryan is a sleazy maggot....therefore, anything he does or says is sleazy. He's the teflon Klintoon of Illinois and should be hung in town square IMO. It's pathetic beyond belief that he has an "R" after his name. If he had a "D"....he'd be announcing that he was announcing a run for President. Seriously.

Saber

01-11-2003, 10:11 AM

News this morning is that he's now commuted ALL death row inmates in Illinois to life in prison!!!!!! http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/fire.gif *He started the other day (yesterday?) by pardoning and RELEASING 4.....and now followed up with sentences commuted to life.

I guess I missed the announcement that someone had died and made him the Supreme Being. *IMO, he's basically overturned the entire judicial system of Illinois.....and HE'S the one that belongs behind bars. *Maybe he just wanted to make some friends so that when he arrives for his taxpayer funded stay in the "big house" Big Bertha will be on his side...... *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif

Floridaguy

01-11-2003, 12:45 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wow.....country music and the death penalty....the only two things I've found so far that we disagree on! *[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> Heck, Saber, you and I are agreeing on a lot of stuff today, from http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/football.gif teams we despise the most, to the above two issues. Maybe we are the Guatamalan twins. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mdr11.gif I have said it before, if I was governor, nothing would be commuted without proof positive of innocence, ever. The red line would be disconnected, and we would never run out of prison space on death row. In fact, the only thing law-abiding citizens might be concerned about with me is a high state electric bill (more than offset by empty prison cells). *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Also, don't let the http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cowboy7.gif hat and boots fool you. There is about as much country music I like that I can count on my fingers. Hard rock is the norm for me, and if I remember correctly, we both like Aerosmith and Metallica?

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cowboy7.gif

Terri

01-11-2003, 12:56 PM

There may have to be some legislation in states to deal with a governor's ability to change a jury's verdict. It's worked just fine for years to trust them but this idiot may have changed it forever. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/fire.gif

What is wrong with this guy? Has he lost his mind? What brought him to this point?

Hmmmffppp.... *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsdown.gif on people that don't like country music and people who root for the Raiders. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/doh.gif

Why would someone have a http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cowboy7.gif fashion file if they don't like country music. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

Terri

01-11-2003, 03:20 PM

Anyone listening to Ryan? He's going on and on and on.*I think it's all about his legacy. *

I sure feel for the people who lost loved ones to vicious killers and have to watch their governor overturn the jury verdicts of their killers. He has no concern for victims whatsoever. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mr_yuk.gif

pRIMrose

01-11-2003, 03:25 PM

I certainly hope that everyone has had a chance to watch Gov. Ryan on Fox this afternoon.

At first I thought he was a "looney", but after listening to him I have to agree that the state of Illinois needs to be sterilized. It is beyond corrupt and the system there is definitely broken. The juries are corrupt, the courts are corrupt, the judges are corrupt and and police are corrupt. The statistics don't lie ~ when in doubt you must err on the side of caution.

Of course there have been no records of an "innocent" person executed. When they are executed, it is over. If the person who was going to be executed in 48 hours and was found innocent, had been executed, would we hear that it was done injustly. I think not.

If the system were not broken, a life sentence would be a life sentence and the elite would not be able to buy their way out of true justice.

To me, it would be a fate much worse than death to be incarcerated for a lifetime.

If the system were not broken, we would not have "Holiday Inn's" for the criminals with more perks and benefits than any hard working person.

We have created this monster, and instead of fixing the things that are outrageous and ridiculous, we console ousleves by killing a few here and three to justify our inability to run a tight ship.

It takes a lot more fortitude to dish out a daily dose of punishment without frills than it is to simply pull a switch or stick a needle in someone's arm.

Capital punishment does not stop or reduce crime. A lifetime of living in an 8x10 room with no hope of getting out or frivilous diversions would send a much stronger message, IMO.

Another words folks. I want them to suffer. And suffer for a lifetime. Death is far too easy. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

Floridaguy

01-11-2003, 04:30 PM

RIM, I gotta differ with you on this neighbor. I don't want people with questionable guilt executed, but when for most capital crimes anymore there are DNA evidence usually available, I do want those on death row who we know are guilty, terminated. It costs more to house someone their entire life, and prsions are generally too cushy. Far more so than almost any other country. I don't think three meals a day, weight lifting equipment, basketball games, etc., are much of a deterrent to anything, especially not for those whose lives may have been far, far worse before prison (a relatively high percentage). I agree that innocent or questionably guilty people should not be executed. If there is no doubt at all, especially with concrete DNA evidence, I say clear the cells, plug in old sparky, and let her rip.

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif

pRIMrose

01-11-2003, 04:54 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I don't think three meals a day, weight lifting equipment, basketball games, etc., are much of a deterrent to anything, especially not for those whose lives may have been far, far worse before prison (a relatively high percentage).[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I think I sorta covered this ~ (see below). http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
If the system were not broken, we would not have "Holiday Inn's" for the criminals with more perks and benefits than any hard working person.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

As for the cost of imprisonment ~ I would venture to say that twenty years of appeals costs far more than what I would envision as a just punishment.

Don't get me wrong ~ I'm definitely not a "bleeding heart". If someone killed or raped my child or a loved one, I would probably kill them "gleefully" myself. That is if I could catch him/her. But, I know it would be wrong. Just like I know in my heart that abortion is wrong, I still think it is a woman's choice. We are only accountable for ourselves. Man is by no means the final arbiter. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twocents.gif

So I shall reiterate ~ as BOR would say, http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ~ hard time for hard crime. No perks, no bar bells, no TV, no conjugal visits, no education, nothing but bare bones medical. Three meals, yes. Very austere, bland and boring. Just enough to keep them alive.

So, I guess in the end analysis, people who advocate the death penalty are much more humane than I. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/huh2.gif

Terri

01-11-2003, 05:03 PM

It's interesting how people hear the same thing and come to different conclusions. I listened to as much of Ryan as I could stand.

Before I heard him I thought he was a looney too. Then at first he seemed like a logical person.

But the longer I listened to him relate that his opinions were based on what Nelson Mandela thinks and on what Europe thinks, the more he lost me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The juries are corrupt, the courts are corrupt, the judges are corrupt and and police are corrupt. *The statistics don't lie ~ when in doubt you must err on the side of caution.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

RIM, I heard him say this is so. Where did you hear any proof? It's not that I doubt there is corruption in Illinois but the argument that no guilty person should die for his crime because every guilty person doesn't die for his crime is a very liberal argument.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Capital punishment does not stop or reduce crime. *A lifetime of living in an 8x10 room with no hope of getting out or frivilous diversions would send a much stronger message, IMO.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sorry but capital punishment does stop crime. Many murderers are repeat offenders. There are just as many statistics to prove that criminals escalate as there is to prove that systems are corrupt.

Sorry, but my heart will never bleed for these monsters. My heart bleeds for their victims. No punishment can be enough, so I would rather simply insure that another bleeding heart like Ryan will not turn them loose to prey on the innocent again. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/fire.gif

As to Ryan, by the end of that hour long diatribe, I figured out what it was all about. It wasn't about corrupt systems or injustice. It was all about Ryan, it was all about a legacy. Where have we seen that before. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/barf.gif

He released 3 men to the streets yesterday because he says they were beaten by police. I've looked but I have found nothing to back up his allegation. Why isn't the evidence being reported?

I'm with you http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cowboy7.gif *Light 'em up!

navyblue

01-11-2003, 06:27 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here's my thoughts on that....Has there ever been ONE person wrongfully executed? *If so....I've NEVER heard about it. *Yes, there have been people whose sentences have been overturned, but to me, that just proves that the system works!!!!
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Saber, I don't know if any innocent person has been wrongly executed either. But one thing I can guarantee you. *If it happened, all the cops, DA's and everyone associated with the case would fall back on the CYOA rule! *They would all lie until hell froze over to keep it quiet. *So what it really comes down to is that we do not know.

pRIMrose

01-11-2003, 06:44 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">, so I would rather simply insure that another bleeding heart like Ryan will not turn them loose to prey on the innocent again. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/fire.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I agree that he should not have turned anyone loose. Life in prison, period. If they received life without parole there would be no question of them getting out to commit other crimes.

However, Illinois is not the only state in question.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Gov. Jeb Bush has effectively put Florida's executions on hold until the U.S. Supreme Court decides a case that could put the constitutionality of our death penalty at risk. No public outcry has resulted. In polls, it is apparent people are feeling far less comfortable with the ultimate punishment. It would be a good time to abolish capital punishment entirely.

If that doesn't happen, and we are under no illusions it will, Bush and the Legislature have a moral duty to put in place many of the Illinois commission's recommendations. The same mistakes occuring in Illinois are happening here, and in every state with a death penalty. The national shame is that they have been tolerated this long. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Shameful Death Penalty Mistakes (http://www.sptimes.com/2002/04/19/Opinion/Shameful_death_penal t.shtml)

I'm not sure what the final outcome has been, since this was written in April, 2002. FlGuy probably knows more about it.

But this is not just an Illinois problem. It is nationwide.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Columbia University researchers tracked all capital convictions from 1973 to 1995, nearly 5,800 cases. They found serious errors in 68 percent. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"It's been clear for a few years that there are major problems with the implementation of the death penalty in this country, " says CBS News Legal Consultant Andrew Cohen. "In Illinois, they've stopped them altogether because of a horrendous record; other states are considering similar moratoria and it's getting harder and harder for even the biggest death penalty proponents to ignore the effect DNA testing can have on most of these cases." [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

June, 2000

Death Penalty Mistakes The Rule (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/06/12/deathpenalty/main204759.shtml)

Personally, I believe that Gov. Ryan spoke from the heart. If he says he personally investigated each and every one of these cases, then I am inclined to believe him. I'm just not convinced that he did this for personal gratification. I think he didn't want it on his conscience that these people were sentenced to death, under dubious and questionable conditions, on his watch. Now it is up to the state of Illinois to make sure that they stay in prison for life.

I know I'm out on this limb all by myself, but I've brought a nice strong sky hook with me. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin2.gif

Terri

01-11-2003, 07:26 PM

First, I will clarify that I think anyone on death row should have the benefit of having DNA tests done if there is any evidence where tests can be performed, bodies exhumed, or whatever it takes. It is incumbent on the courts that they be as sure as humanly possible.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If he says he personally investigated each and every one of these cases, then I am inclined to believe him. *I'm just not convinced that he did this for personal gratification.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
RIM, you know I love you but there is no way that I can believe that one man personally investigated all those murder cases and he knows better than all those prosecutors, judges and juries who actually sat in courtrooms day after day and heard the witnesses and saw the evidence. I'm sorry but that just doesn't fly.

He commuted every single death sentence in Illinois so you are saying that every single jury, judge and prosecutor was wrong, not just some, all! *And it took this one man to know that and investigate all these cases personally and prove it. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/shake.gif

Der Alte

01-11-2003, 07:35 PM

As far as why did he come up with this idea - I would imagine it was partially due to the 13 on death row that were fairly tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers - then found innocent by a DNA test. On this one I have to agree with RIM and BOR - lock them up, no perks and no way out. At least if they are found innocent at some later date they can be let go - if they are not innocent they have the rest of their life to think about it.

pRIMrose

01-11-2003, 09:40 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">RIM, you know I love you but there is no way that I can believe that one man personally investigated all those murder cases and he knows better than all those prosecutors, judges and juries who actually sat in courtrooms day after day and heard the witnesses and saw the evidence. I'm sorry but that just doesn't fly. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/grouphug.gif And you know the feeling is mutual. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif You have far more faith in the people to whom we have entrusted our justice system than I. Particularly, but not exclusively, trial lawyers.

I guess the OJ trial did it for me. If ever there was a miscarriage of justice, that was. I watched it, day in and day out. I came away with a very bitter taste in my mouth regarding due process. There was enough DNA spread around to convict him ten times over, but we know why he wasn't. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif If any of those people on death row had the benefit of a "dream team" as did OJ ~ they would all have been exonerated. The juries would never have been all white to begin with.

The system is flawed ~ pure and simple. It has succumbed to the infallability of the human's innate ability to differentiate between true guilt or innocence. There is now an overwhelming hidden agenda on the part of all those concerned. From the police on the street to the jury who convicts. Due to media saturation, it is almost an impossibility for anyone to receive a fair trial. If the trials were fair to begin with then why are so many convictions overturned?

Perhaps if everyone had to spend a few months in lock down with no privileges, they would have some compassion for those who have spent years in prison when they were actually innocent. Ten, twenty or thirty years of your life for something you didn't do is unthinkable. What if you were one of those who didn't have someone digging up DNA or new evidence for you and your time ran out? Just which one of the upstanding "judicial" servants will donate his time and money to clear your name posthumously?

There are so many more things we can do to make criminals pay for their crimes other than the death penalty. But we would rather kill them than force them to become productive contributors to their own existence. Making them become self sufficient and demanding that they perform is somehow more inhumane than killing them. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

The only exception I can think of is during war. If an American citizen is caught "aiding and abbeting" the enemy they should be shot on the spot. No trial. But no, we give them more due process than we do most other criminals. I fully support military tribunals.

Floridaguy

01-11-2003, 10:47 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the cost of imprisonment ~ I would venture to say that twenty years of appeals costs far more than what I would envision as a just punishment.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> Correct. Therefore, kill the appeals process, make it no longer or more in depth than any other felony. That is what I advocated before, and I stick to it. My version of life imprisonment v. the death penalty makes the death penalty come out way cheaper, because it involves limited appeals, and then involves throwing the switch.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess the OJ trial did it for me. *If ever there was a miscarriage of justice, that was. *[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> Absolutely. In fact, if anything, the OJ case proved to me that our system definitely is far more apt to err on the side of finding someone innocent when they are undoubtedly guilty, than guilty when they are innocent. So, once again, with two people looking at things from a different perspective obviously, the OJ case proved to me that when someone is found guilty of a capital offense in spite of the very high odds against it (even if they are guilty) then I trust the system that they are in fact, in those limited circumstances, GUILTY. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First, I will clarify that I think anyone on death row should have the benefit of having DNA tests done if there is any evidence where tests can be performed, bodies exhumed, or whatever it takes. It is incumbent on the courts that they be as sure as humanly possible.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> This is what I said, too, and if I was unclear before, this is certainly what my intent was. The whole point for me is that because we now have DNA evidence available for many cases to prove (not "just" beyond a shadow of a doubt) that some offenders absolutely are guilty, then it made it much easier for me to accept the death penalty; exactly because the science has now made it possible to avoid error far more often than historically. I would hope at the very least that any capital offender given the death penalty who has been proven with clearcut DNA evidence to indeed have committed the crime, that those against the death penalty because of the uncertainty in it, would approve it for those where we are indeed certain. In those limited cases of proven guilt by science, not just opinion of a fallible human being, would you still be against capital punishment RIM?

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cowboy7.gif

pRIMrose

01-12-2003, 06:47 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In those limited cases of proven guilt by science, not just opinion of a fallible human being, would you still be against capital punishment RIM? [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

All of life, including science, is up for interpretation by "fallible" human beings. If this were not so, OJ would be behind bars today. The "gift for gab" by high priced sycophants trumps expertise. Another words "don't believe your own lying eyes." Even when the "scientific" evidence proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone is guilty, money and power can ride to the rescue. "It all depends on the definition of is. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

You have artfully danced around my many explanations of how I would make prison more dreaded than the death penalty. This just reinforces my opinion that our system has failed and is beyond redemption. We have admitted that the "imates run the assylum" and death is better for them than making them, over the long haul, spend a lifetime of pentinance.

I'm no "pollyanna" who has some overwhelming misplaced pity for the scum among us. I probably want them dead more than you. I just don't think that God gave me that authority.

Can we agree to disagree? http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Floridaguy

01-12-2003, 11:49 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Can we agree to disagree? http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> Of course! http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/grouphug.gif

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cowboy7.gif

Terri

01-12-2003, 03:08 PM

Well of course we can disagree and do so in a friendly way.

However, I wish you would all read about the victims in the other thread I posted here and tell me where is their justice? *Where is the justice for the likely victims yet to come from these men who are now on the streets?

How many of those murderers with commuted sentences will be on the streets shortly, having served out their "life" sentences? I do hope there is some enterprising journalist out there who will keep track of these people, (4 were women) and remind the Governor and his supporters everytime another life is taken by then. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Editing to add: I heard a figure this morning that 30 some of the victims were children.

Saber

01-12-2003, 05:35 PM

I was reading in the Tribune this morning that our new Governor (tomorrow)....Blajoi ovich (oh, whatever) is totally against this commutation too. My, how times have changed. To think there's any type of "relief" to be felt with a dem coming into office. I'm sure it won't last long http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tearhair.gif .....but Ryan is/was an unmitigated disaster. The corruption stench coming from Springfield is overwhelming.

Granite River

01-12-2003, 06:40 PM

It is just as well that these murders get off of death row. I heard that most people on the Illinois death row die of other causes before they are executed anyway. The worst thing in this is the pain to the victims. Some of the people commuted are double murderers. One guy raped a woman and killed her while her son watched.

Even though the propaganda was that Bush was doing the executions himself out at his ranch, the governor of Texas can’t take people off of death row like this guy did and after seeing this political move in Illinois the reason Texas doesn’t want the Governor having that power is clear.

Der Alte

01-12-2003, 09:31 PM

Reading all the retoric, I believe that most of you conservatives would prefer the German Judicial System - OJ wouldn't. Under the German system there is no jury - you have three judges and they will not allow the lawyer antics we put up with - it requires all three judges for conviction in a capitol crime, but the advantage is the lawyers can present only evidence - no smoke.

Terri

01-12-2003, 10:04 PM

First, I need to correct a mistaken impression I left earlier. I have since read that Ryan's murderers are sentenced to life without parole. I hope that truly means what it says.

Der Alte, Colorado tried that system very recently. In a death penalty case where a jury found the verdict to be guilty it went to a 3 judge panel for sentencing. These were judges who did not hear the case. It was a resounding failure because of judicial activism.

The first case was the vicious kidnapping and murder of a young girl from a parking lot. She was the third girl they tried to get. It was definitely premeditated and horrible.

One of the three judges refused to find death because he didn't believe in the death penalty.

Terri

01-12-2003, 11:23 PM

There is an updated related topic posted for discussion at Illinois Gov. Commutes All Death Sentences (http://gopusa.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.pl?act=ST&f=1&t=852&st=)

nekela

01-13-2003, 11:30 AM

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Well I have to agree with Florida Guy wholeheartedly on this. I believe when they have proof positive on a persons guilt they should not be laying around living off the taxpayers. Whats with the court system when they let the lawyers keep postponing the demise of these vermin. I think they should have a thorough investigation of the case and a maximum of 2 years on death row and then be put to death. Maybe that is the easy way out for them , but I say it is better than supporting them for up to 20 years.
We have a case in Washington where this man killed 2 bank tellers by shooting them in the head in 1981 and he is still in prison but a judge commuted his sentence to "Life" because he gained so much weight eating candy and snack foods that the judge said it would be cruel and unusual punishment if they hung him , because it could cause him to be decapitated. He had a choice of hanging or lethal injection and chose the hanging. I believe this was on advice from his lawyers. I see where our Attorney General had asked the 9th Circuit Court to reverse the decision , but they refused to hear the case. What did she expect from them?
I guess they think that death with a bullet through the head is not cruel.

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

BillKat

01-13-2003, 05:32 PM

I gotta agree with FloridaGuy.

As for 20 years of appeals costing more than life sentence, guess what? The criminals will still file the appeals whether they are sentenced to death or life in prison. If you have concrete proof, waste 'em. Why should the taxpayers have to have foot the burden for supporting these pieces of low-life? On the other hand, we could do what other countries do and let their families feed and clothe them. If you don't have family that's willing to feed you, oh well. Putting the burden back on the families may help solve some of the problems in the firstplace. Mom & Pop may be willing to spend a little more quality time with junior when he's growing up......

Seems easier just to dust off ole sparky.

BillKat

Captain Eagle

01-13-2003, 06:11 PM

If you could see what the Meth Heads did to my Cadillac you might have a slightly different view of the criminal element. Too bad I can send you a couple of pictures. There is nothing left from the windshield forward and everything else is gone. Just half of an empty shell. I believe it is time to execute all criminals for any offense. Get rid of all of them and it would give us money for better social causes that warehousing two million barf-bags. Either you are an alive" law abiding citizen "or a dead" criminal "would be the Captain Eagle Way. I would like any one of you to give me one good reason to room and board this filth for their lifetime. I think there is little advantage now in not being a criminal. I will grant you that being locked up is unpleasant but the man who chopped up my car is an ex-con. I will be in court at their trial and there will be no plea bargains on this one or I am going to find a bottom feeder to sue the State of Arizona. OIur little town has turned into " junky heaven "and we tolerate it. I am not part of the we, BTW.

AngelsRWorldChamps

01-13-2003, 08:02 PM

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif9 am--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Saber @ Jan. 11, 2003 -- 07http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif9 am)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wow.....country music and the death penalty....the only two things I've found so far that we disagree on! *LOL

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can't correct a mistake once you've killed the accused.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Here's my thoughts on that....Has there ever been ONE person wrongfully executed? *If so....I've NEVER heard about it. *Yes, there have been people whose sentences have been overturned, but to me, that just proves that the system works!!!!

George Ryan is a sleazy maggot....therefore, anything he does or says is sleazy. *He's the teflon Klintoon of Illinois and should be hung in town square IMO. *It's pathetic beyond belief that he has an "R" after his name. *If he had a "D"....he'd be announcing that he was announcing a run for President. *Seriously.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I could not have said it any better.

Ryan cost the GOP every race but Gope by attacking thet good Canidates not helping out canidates he should not have helped out. Ryan if you red this I pray that no evil doer kills a member of your family. i guess you would comute their death penalty also.

I have to say it Ryan is worse than Gray Davis,

Saber and I know live in the Peoples Republic of Illinois.

AngelsRWorldChamps

01-13-2003, 08:07 PM

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif4 pm--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Terri @ Jan. 12, 2003 -- 9http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif4 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First, I need to correct a mistaken impression I left earlier. *I have since read that Ryan's murderers are sentenced to life without parole. I hope that truly means what it says.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Terri as a victim I would say to say the parole and having them live ther rest of their life on death role is the same. They kill someone and get to have food, sex, and shelter the rest of their lives while the victims familes try to find closure.

AngelsRWorldChamps

01-13-2003, 08:11 PM

A new studny came out a week ago that 83 precent of Americans favor the death penalty it was in usatoday I am still trying to find it anyone else see it.

Granite River

01-14-2003, 08:09 AM

There is a simple answer to the question of guilt in capital cases. If the accused pleads his innocents then offer him truth serum. If he can past a sodiumamatol interview then let him go. If he fails then he is already hooked to an IV.

Bob2351

01-14-2003, 09:08 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Captain Eagle @ Jan. 13, 2003 -- 6:11 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you could see what the Meth Heads did to my Cadillac you might have a slightly different view of the criminal element. Too bad I can send you a couple of pictures. There is nothing left from the windshield forward and everything else is gone. Just half of an empty shell. I believe it is time to execute all criminals for any offense. Get rid of all of them and it would give us money for better social causes that warehousing two million barf-bags. Either you are an alive" law abiding citizen "or a dead" criminal "would be the Captain Eagle Way. I would like any one of you to give me one good reason to room and board this filth for their lifetime. I think there is little advantage now in not being a criminal. I will grant you that being locked up is unpleasant but the man who chopped up my car is an ex-con. I will be in court at their trial and there will be no plea bargains on this one or I am going to find a bottom feeder to sue the State of Arizona. OIur little town has turned into " junky heaven "and we tolerate it. I am not part of the we, BTW.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
When I was in my early twenties I got drunk and wrecked a car. In my stupid drunken state I scuffled with the police officers who arrested me. I was given a sound beating by a large number of officers later at the jailhouse. Eventually I was brought to trial and I plead guilty, paid a fine and was given credit for time served. You would have executed me?