2 Key Members of Black Caucus Support Military Draft [Archive]

Aknauta

01-03-2003, 01:14 PM

washingtonpost.com

2 Key Members of Black Caucus Support Military Draft

By Darryl Fears
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 3, 2003; Page A08

Two prominent members of the Congressional Black Caucus have voiced support for a nationwide military draft, saying that children of the rich should serve alongside less privileged Americans in the war on terrorism.

Reps. Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) and John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), both armed services veterans, said this week they would ask the House to consider legislation to reinstitute the draft, perhaps as early as next week, at the start of the 108th Congress. The United States has not drafted troops since 1973.

"A member introducing legislation that they don't really support in order to play politics and embarrass the president is disingenuous," (http://www.washingtonpost.c om/wp-dyn/articles/A3398-2003Jan2.html)

pRIMrose

01-04-2003, 06:49 AM

Personally I see nothing wrong in a military draft ~ peace time or war time. It certainly would go a long way to instill some much needed discipline. If it was good enough for my generation, it's good enough now.

Can't you just see the loud mouth Hollywood wonks screaming. All those mouthy little darlings would be singing a different tune, I'm sure. Canada, Oh Canada! http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif Come to think about it, this might be a way to get rid of the dead wood here and get back at Canada for being so cavalier about the borders. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin2.gif

And since we are now an "equal opportunity country" ~ this should apply to the females also. Especially all those loud mouth harpies who insist on membership in the "men's only" establishments. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif

Yes, it sounds good to me. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Terri

01-04-2003, 10:28 AM

Not to me. I'm not against the principle of a draft but the volunteer military has been more successful than anyone ever thought possible.

Military experts are against a draft that they say is unneeded.

This is a rather transparent ploy by the left to stir up more anti war sentiment in the country, IMHO.

Floridaguy

01-04-2003, 04:46 PM

Once again, I agree with Terri. This despite the fact that I would love to send Mitchell, and maybe David, to military school once they are old enough... http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/flag19.gif

Aknauta

01-04-2003, 05:39 PM

Nothing wrong with the draft, I went through it myself. But we have to keep in mind that the reason these anti-American legislators want to bring the draft back is because they have visions of the Nixonion riots in the streets, National Guard firing on students, and general civil unrest in America. They WANT to subvert our country, and if they can use the draft for such a purpose they will.
Frankly a good boot camp can do a lot of people some real good. I credit army
sargents for helping to improve my outlook on life. Even females could find some useful time in the military services.
To this day I can clean my toilet better than my wife (main reason she "lets" me do it)......LOL

Saber

01-05-2003, 07:01 AM

hmmmmmm...I'm up and down about this one. I also look at it personally since I have one that would be "prime pickin's" for the draft. In some ways it would be the best thing that could happen to him in the "reality check" arena.

On the other hand, as I've said many, many times before....until this President makes an honest commitment to closing our borders and protecting this country as he said he would in his oath of office...all the rest becomes a not-so-funny joke. As long as he can put our sons and daughters in harm's way by protecting Afghanistan's borders yet leaves our own borders wide open, I would not support any draft whatsoever. Period.

On the third hand http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif , these demoncrats are the most disingenuous people I can imagine. They are losers of the first magnitude. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

pRIMrose

01-05-2003, 09:10 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.until this President makes an honest commitment to closing our borders and protecting this country as he said he would in his oath of office...all the rest becomes a not-so-funny joke.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I can go along with this. Of course, it is my wish that we would never need a military and Terri is right, the volunteer draft has worked fine ~ till now. But I'm just afraid that the demographics have changed and according to the most learned sources, we are going to be at war (one type or another) for years to come. This isn't going to be a 1991 blowlout and we are finding hot spots all over the globe that we are trying to contain. IMO, this won't be done by a volunteer military. Korea alone has a million man army. One nuke can fix that, but I'm sure we won't go that route.

It's not a happy scenario, but like Jefferson said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

But, like Saber said ~ FIRST we need to know that the administration is taking our homeland concerns seriously and that means BORDER CONTROL. No more silly talk about amnesty and no more OPEN DOOR policies re: visas. If you come here to go to school then you darn well better be in school. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/teeth2.gif

I'll agree that the whole notion coming from liberals gives one pause. However, I still consider the military an excellent venue for much needed discipline. Maybe this is because I come from a Navy military family. There is a reason that most of our military vote conservative ~ and now that we have a CIC who intends to fairly compensate them for their patriotism we may not need to instigate a draft anyway. If they are being paid what they are worth finally, it should attract more to volunteer.

http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twocents.gif

Terri

01-05-2003, 03:26 PM

To clarify my opinion, I don't have any problem with young people giving something back to their country but I think we have to be logical about how we do it.

Military service would certainly qualify but I don't think it could be the only option. How would we absorb the millions who turn 18 every year?

For that matter how would we compensate all those people even at minimum wage. Would it just turn into another big entitlement program?

I'm fascinated how every issue hinges on closing the border. I would agree it's one of if not the most important issue but I can't base every other decision on that one.

Maybe we could put a substantial portion of the 18-20 year olds on the borders.

Btw, I don't have a son who is draft age but I do have a grandson who will be in a few years. And if this applies to everyone, I have a granddaughter who will be very soon.

One of my major concerns is the continuation of the expansion of entitlement programs if we do have to greatly expand the military how can we keep expanding federal funding for things like education and Medicare?

I have no problem with tax cuts, especially on investments, because that will grow the economy.

whoisjohngalt

01-05-2003, 04:19 PM

Compulsory military service is wrong, both in practice and in principle.

The state has no right to compel people to give up part of their lives for military service, regardless of if it instills "discipline" in young people or not.

Why don't you let parents decide that, instead of dictating to them what's "right" for their family?

Terri

01-05-2003, 04:29 PM

whoisjohngalt welcome to the forum.

Interesting reaction, would your objection be as strong if they were going to serve their country in the Peace Corps?

Parents do have the right of decision for their children. We are speaking of young adults, not children.

whoisjohngalt

01-05-2003, 05:50 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Interesting reaction, would your objection be as strong if they were going to serve their country in the Peace Corps?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Absolutely. Slavery is slavery.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Parents do have the right of decision for their children. We are speaking of young adults, not children.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

If they are adults, why treat them like children? What could be more conducive to our American way of life than allowing people to pursue personal excellence without a bunch of pseudo-patriotic ninnies compelling them to give up two (or more&#33http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif years of their lives for the state?

Aknauta

01-05-2003, 06:32 PM

It is really amazing how soon every wants to create a totalitarian state in America.

Do we want freedom in America or not? Hmmmmm?

The Patriot Act is a really really stupid attempt to expose our whole intelligence apparatus to destruction. Now it takes a concerted effort by large intelligence agencies abroad to break into our system of intelligence compartmentalization . Now that they want to tie all the security agencies together into HOMELAND SECURITY all it will take is some two-bit dictator to locate every secret. All he has to do is get one guy into the system and he will have access to most of the rest of our secrets. What a disaster. Homeland security....isn't.

All of the major security services will halt co-operation with us knowing full well that anything they give us will be compromised.

You can't have a free society and close the borders. Period.

That being said, America is an open society, if we want true homeland security it will be necessary to turn us into a tight dictatorship. That isn't going to happen so the best thing you can say is that Homeland Security is a figment of Congressional fantasies. In fact, it is Congress that is the dangerous elected body in this country. Nearly everything it does harms our country. They make the Bush administration look positively Orthodox.
You cannot close an open society... period. You can't secure its borders, you can't inspect every ship and you can't know every person. Period.
Do you want a free society or not? If you do then you take the risks associated with a free society and stop whining about the disasters that inevitably will occur.

Protection of our free country is best served by punishing those who attack us.

Each of us owes our country not only our dedication to its principles but we also owe a debt of service too. That can be served in many ways, the military being just one of those ways. The problem is that this patriotic feeling has declined with the growth of the administrative state. Now people expect the state to attend to them, instead of vica-versa.
This does not bode well for the survival of the America I knew.

Der Alte

01-05-2003, 07:58 PM

My http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twocents.gif. I spent 20 years in the military when the draft was in, and 4 years with the all volunteer service. I can tell you that the all volunteer service is far better - to many draftees were from the bottom of the barrel and did nothing to enhance the military - in fact they often wasted the time of the professional GIs.

As far as some of the other comments in this thread, I will say only that if you are not willing to give something to your country you should find someplace else to live.

pRIMrose

01-05-2003, 08:52 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can't have a free society and close the borders. Period.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Perhaps I used the wrong wording. Moratorium is more like what I meant. Of course no open society can have totally closed borders. That isn't up for discussion. What is pathetic, we have let the bleeding hearts of this country inundate us with illegal and unlawful ursurpers who have no business being here. There was nothing wrong with orderly, documented immigration which worked for many years. To infer that it is either/or is ludicrous. There has to be a happy medium and a way to ensure the secuity of the people of this country. If I, as an American citizen, must submit to government scrutiny via SS and any number of other tracking devices, I cannot think of a single reason that we should not require the same from those who wish to partake of what this country has to offer. Since we have totally ignored the borders for so long, IMO, it will take a lot more than a "ho hum" approach and polyanna platitudes about patriotism vs. totalitarianism.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What could be more conducive to our American way of life than allowing people to pursue personal excellence without a bunch of pseudo-patriotic ninnies compelling them to give up two (or more!http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif years of their lives for the state?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Training for a war, as we are in now, doesn't start the day you are attacked. It is an ongoing thing. If we waited for the faint of heart to take up arms and protect the county we'd soon be in the same shape as many third world countries. This country didn't become "free" by magic. It took a lot of blood, sweat and tears ~ by those who didn't consider their country as "the state" but as their "homeland". They pledged their lives and their honor so we could have what we have today. Let's hope that those who gave their all didn't do so in vain.

DerAlte ~ you are probably right about volunteer vs. draft. However, that should be addressed through the proper channels of enlistment, I would think. A dishonorable discharge on your record would not be a great thing to carry around when looking for employment. In fact, when there was a draft, that was a primary question on an employment application.

Saber

01-05-2003, 09:05 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can't have a free society and close the borders. Period[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

LOL RIM! This is EXACTLY the quote I picked out too. I agree with what you further explained. I would go further, however, and say that the CITIZENS of this country would indeed be able to have a free society with closed borders to NON CITIZENS. I would like to at least think and hope that we could have at least SOME control of our borders...maybe along the lines that President Bush has established in Afghanistan. Sheesh..... http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif

Saber

01-05-2003, 09:07 PM

Adults you say? HA! My son always asks how it is...exactly...that he can go fight and die for his country in some third world hellhole....but he can't legally drink a beer. Seem a wee bit ridiculous?

Terri

01-05-2003, 11:52 PM

Aknauta, are you saying you want open borders with no control of illegal aliens or what? Could you clarify?

Der Alte, I think you are right that the quality of the volunteer soldier is so much better than before.

Actually, I don't think any of us are advocating totally closed borders. We have advocated closing them totally until the INS gets on top of the situation and then reinstating legal immigration.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would go further, however, and say that the CITIZENS of this country would indeed be able to have a free society with closed borders to NON CITIZENS. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly! It's probably impossible to prevent every instance of illegal entry but I think it is the duty of every elected official to try. It comes under their sworn duty to protect the CITIZENS of this country.

Closed borders does not mean no legal entry to me. It does mean no illegal entry.

pRIMrose

01-06-2003, 07:16 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Adults you say? HA! My son always asks how it is...exactly...that he can go fight and die for his country in some third world hellhole....but he can't legally drink a beer. Seem a wee bit ridiculous? [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Excellent point. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Anyone old enough (18) to be drafted should be old enough to vote and buy a beer.

As for "third world hellholes" ~ I agree that we have stretched ourselves way too thin. Why should we be the "world police"? The only places we should take into consideration are those who are our staunch allies, ie Great Britian, Israel, and possibly some of the "lip service" euros. The rest of the world can sink or swim on their own. UNLESS we are attacked. Then we should take it to their doorstep and tramp right over the UN to get there. Who cares if they "love" us or not. I'd rather they had a healthy respect for us. This diplomacy crap is wearing thin and meanwhile we are only endangering more and more of our military not to mention our own homeland. In this war, time in our enemy. It is impossible to reason with a population of people who demonstrate no sanctity for life. Hitler cut quite a swath before he was stopped. Perhaps we should not have had a draft back then. Perhaps we should have just let the "volunteers" do it. Of course, back then, most able bodied people in this country wanted desperately to do something for the war effort, from joining up for the military to working in the factories that supplied the arms, planes and tactical necessities. Unfortunately, it put a lot of people to work, which dispels the notion of increased entitlements. No one wants to build an economy on "war", but when life offers you lemons you can either whine and cry about it or you can make lemonade. Thank goodness their were enough "lemonade" thinkers when we desperately needed them.

With our "open border ~ no accountability" mentality, it will take more than volunteers to keep us safe right here at home. We have "volunteers" on the border right now ~ just ask them if they need more. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

Saber

01-06-2003, 07:41 AM

As for being an "adult".....as my older son recently lamented.....I can fight and die for my country, but I can't rent a car from Hertz. When these things come up, I make a point of telling both of them how the dems like to screw up everyone and everything with all their inane "power over the people" laws.

Saber

01-06-2003, 07:47 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Aknauta, are you saying you want open borders with no control of illegal aliens or what? *Could you clarify?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I guess I'm a little thick 'cuz I didn't get it either. *If so (which I doubt), living in Alaska could be part of the reason. *As I've said before, my own mother doesn't understand the "fuss" about illegals. *Until people have it in their face on a daily basis and have their lives and culture changed almost overnight, the critical mass stage that has been felt in many parts of this country hasn't come "home to roost", so to speak.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually, I don't think any of us are advocating totally closed borders. We have advocated closing them totally until the INS gets on top of the situation and then reinstating legal immigration.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Agreed....and I would add that the reinstatement should be at a MUCH lower level.

pRIMrose

01-06-2003, 09:42 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Until people have it in their face on a daily basis and have their lives and culture changed almost overnight, the critical mass stage that has been felt in many parts of this country hasn't come "home to roost", so to speak.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Absolutely. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/twothumbsup.gif I just found out, which was no big surprise, that in my county alone the hispanic population is 70%. This is a dramatic increase from 30 years ago when I moved here. My gripe is not with the "legal" residents, who are hard working and contribute to the community. It is with the thousands of illegals who have invaded and jumped on all our social services. This problem is not going to go away without some big time legislation from politicians like Tancredo. As long as we base our economy on "cheap" labor, eventually that's all we will have. A nation of illegal migrants (not immigrants) with a few plantation owners. In other words, we will become just like the place they left. Maybe not in my lifetime, but somewhere down the line. Like all disease, if not caught in the early stage it will either destroy your quality of life or kill you. Who is going to clean up the ghettoes and tenement shacks that are moving north like a creeping eruption? If I lived in Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, N.Dakota, S.Dakota or one of the pristine New England states I too could be so cavalier as to ignore the plight of California, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Florida and others.

Sorry for the thread drift ~ http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif but when you talk about a military draft and homeland security, our borders just naturally become a bone of contention. I certainly wouldn't want a son or daughter of mine (if I had one) to be drafted to defend a country that wouldn't defend it's own borders.

Saber

01-06-2003, 09:56 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I certainly wouldn't want a son or daughter of mine (if I had one) to be drafted to defend a country that wouldn't defend it's own borders.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Very succinct and pinpoint sharp RIM. *That's exactly where I stand. *Unfortunately, much of our talk as a nation over the last year has been national security. *It's a big umbrella that ties in the war on terror, INS, FBI, CIA, the military, a draft and THE BORDERS. *Under the big umbrella, I don't know how you can talk about one without the effect of another. *In other words, much of the security.....or not....of this country falls right at our own borders. *Our own President has made a terrible mess of an already messy subject by continuing to do the WRONG things about our border security.... and MOST inexplicably since 9/11. *It's beyond insulting and infuriating to read articles about our border containment in Afghanistan on the one hand and his trial balloons for amnesty for his "best friend" Fox' citizens on the other. *http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/fire.gif

To put a fine point on it, there will be NO national security in this country until he closes these borders to illegal criminals. *Our borders are THE base of security. *All the rest is window dressing. *There can be no real security without a firm foundation and he's allowing it to crumble to smithereens on a daily basis.

VeteranWW2

01-06-2003, 09:58 AM

For as long as I can remember I have been an advicate of Universal Military Training...that would include 1/2 of each day of Military Discipline & Technology training, and the other half in Education.

When you consider the level of basic intelligence, the ability to think and reason, of a majority of our young people
this would be a boon to this nation for now and the distant future.

Two years of EVERY young person's life
is nothing compared to the potential results and the future of each individual.

This especially for the boys but the girls as well. If the education covered nothing but marriage and parenting it would be terrific. However, for many learning to read with understanding and write with meaning would be their greatest gain.

For those who yell "Freedom violation!!"
I say stick it... Freedom for our young needs to be earned.

pRIMrose

01-06-2003, 10:04 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For those who yell "Freedom violation!!"
I say stick it... Freedom for our young needs to be earned.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Hi VeteranWWII ~ http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wavey.gif glad to see you posting. BTW ~ I concur totally with your premise. Who do they think "bought and paid" for all that wonderful freedom they enjoy today?

Saber

01-06-2003, 10:07 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Two years of EVERY young person's life
is nothing compared to the potential results and the future of each individual.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I would not ever back a requirement of two years in the military for every individual. I do, however, think there is some merit in encouraging two years of volunteer time in some capacity to your community or state over a larger number of years. "Encourage" is the key word.....not "require". Requiring military service directed by the federal government elite does not sound like an ideal of a freedom loving nation to me.

Saber

01-06-2003, 10:22 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> If the education covered nothing but marriage and parenting it would be terrific. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

If our children spent 1/2 of their days in military training....and the other half on marriage and parenting education...when is it that they would be learning the sciences and mathematics and reading and history? I'm feeling very "DUH" today! http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

nekela

01-06-2003, 11:37 AM

However, I still consider the military an excellent venue for much needed discipline. * Maybe this is because I come from a Navy military family. *There is a reason that most of our military vote conservative ~ and now that we have a CIC who intends to fairly compensate them for their patriotism we may not need to instigate a draft anyway. *If they are being paid what they are worth finally, it should attract more to volunteer.
http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif *When does Bush intend to compensate the retirees fairly. When the bill to pay the dual-comp came up and passed he said he would veto it and he has more or less ignored the issue of the retirees that were promised "FREE" health care for them and their families for the rest of their lives. As a friend of mine has said "When it gets down to one 90 year old retiree left then they will give it to him and then blow their horns about all the good things they are doing for the veterans". http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

pRIMrose

01-06-2003, 01:10 PM

Hi Nekela http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wavey.gif

Glad to see you posting in the forum. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

While I agree totally that not nearly enough has been done to compensate some of our veterans, I find it more than slightly disengenuous to lay the blame on George Bush. There were 40 years of a democratic Congress and eight long years of military emasculation by Clinton.

Just to put things in proper perspective, George Bush has only been in office for two years. Within eight months he was propelled into a war on terror. He has been trying to "jump start" a flagging economy (again thanks to a preoccupied Clinton) and give the taxpayers some of their hard earned money back. He has approved a much larger military budget than his predecessor.

JFTR ~ my family has benefited greatly from military retirement and perks. My BIL retired after 30 years (E9-Super Chief) in the Navy and has great pay and benefits. My husband spent four years in the Navy and received an excellent education as an aviation electrician. He also received extra money in SS for his military service. Without the VA we probably wouldn't have been able to afford our first home. He received more education after discharge through the GI Bill. We have been compensated very well for the four years he spent in the Navy.

This doesn't address the grievances of those to whom you refer, but as I have stated, it should have been fixed long ago. We can thank the "tax and spend" Democrats for somehow letting this slip through the cracks. They were probably too busy buying votes from illegal immigrants and funding all those wonderful socially PC programs that create a helpless society of whiners who will never do anything for themselves as long as the benevolent government is willing to do it.

Unfortunately, there probably won't be a resolution to this problem in the near future. There is only so much one man can do in two years ~ given that he had a Democratic Senate obstructing him at every turn. Perhaps, however, now that we have that "skinny" margin again, future generations will begin to see some improvements. We can hope. http://gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

whoisjohngalt

01-07-2003, 07:44 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
For as long as I can remember I have been an advicate of Universal Military Training...that would include 1/2 of each day of Military Discipline & Technology training, and the other half in Education.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

That's actually a frightening proposition.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
When you consider the level of basic intelligence, the ability to think and reason, of a majority of our young people
this would be a boon to this nation for now and the distant future.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Myself having never served, I dare say that I am quite able to think and reason on my own without some scoundrel who hides behind patriotism trying to tell me what to do...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Two years of EVERY young person's life
is nothing compared to the potential results and the future of each individual.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Central expert planning...it's what communists love and fascists insist on.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
For those who yell "Freedom violation!!"
I say stick it... Freedom for our young needs to be earned.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, I'll just take my copy of the Constitution and "stick it." After all, it doesn't mean anything, right?

-john galt

Terri

01-07-2003, 09:29 AM

whoisjohngalt, if we ever disintegrate to the point where most people in this country are like you and unwilling to defend America then the Constitution will soon mean nothing.

A piece of paper does not stand alone. It is backed by the blood of patriotic Americans who gave you the right to call them "scoundrels".

Arrogance counts for very little in this world.

Saber

01-07-2003, 09:56 AM

FWIW, I didn't get that johngalt was saying that he wouldn't defend America. I understood that he takes issue with militaristic training in our educational system. I do agree with him on that. It sounds more like North Korea to me than the United States.

Terri

01-07-2003, 10:12 AM

OK, well let's just ask him.

whois, under what circumstances would you defend America by joining the military?

As to the training mentioned above, I don't even support the draft at this point in time, much less that kind of training. However, some training in reality might help some folks understand the world a little better.

Granite River

01-07-2003, 10:51 AM

These two aren’t even trying to hide the fact that their promotion of a new draft is all about do anything they can do to dived the populous. The minute a draft was instituted they would be counting the black heads in the ranks and screaming racism. They have tried to raise questions about the number of blacks in the volunteer military but haven’t gotten much traction.

At one point Rangel was saying that the people in the military were the disadvantaged who jointed to serve but not to be shot at. He kept saying that the volunteers shouldn’t have to fight the war alone. It was clear that he was just trying to stir up trouble for Bush.

What we might do is institute a non combat draft to serve at home while the real military is deployed. They could do some simple maintenance, help move troop and equipment, keep the cards warm and things like that.

whoisjohngalt

01-07-2003, 12:39 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
whoisjohngalt, if we ever disintegrate to the point where most people in this country are like you and unwilling to defend America then the Constitution will soon mean nothing.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Please don't lecture me about the Constitution while advocating compulsory military service. It's obscene. No where in the Constitution does it say that the state may compel men service in the military.

America has never been in a shortage of people to defend it when she has been attacked. War of 1812. WWII. September 11.

-john galt

Terri

01-07-2003, 01:40 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">whois, under what circumstances would you defend America by joining the military?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

whois, I asked you a direct question and I would appreciate a direct answer.

Granite River

01-07-2003, 05:03 PM

Whois ”No where in the Constitution does it say that the state may compel men service in the military.”

Take a look at Article 1, Section 8, paragraph 15 ; * To provide for calling forth the militia,

paragraph 16; * To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia

This could be construed to give the power of drafting the Militia to the Congress.

[B]

whoisjohngalt

01-07-2003, 05:13 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
whois, I asked you a direct question and I would appreciate a direct answer.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

First: I am a civilian employee in the Department of Defense. And I can honestly say that if compulsory universal military service was instituted, our military would become nothing more than a New Deal jobs program (in other words, a JOKE).

If you want to keep our military professional one and keep our constitutional liberties in tact, you will come to the conclusion that universal military service is a disgraceful idea.

Secondly, with regards to me serving in the military-- yes, I would if I thought I needed to. But right now, I don't see a need for it.

-john galt