Read this

[Brit]

On Sunday, 13 Iraqis were killed and dozens injured in Baghdad when US helicopters fired on a crowd of unarmed civilians.

"One of the three men raised his head and looked around the empty streets in astonishment. Then he slowly started moving his head to the ground, rested it on his arms, and stretched towards something he could see. He wanted help, but no-one helped. The streets were empty and silent and the men lay there dying together."

"Take pictures - show the world the American democracy"

Enough said.

[Merika]

Yeah.....cause the people at the WTC were all packing M-16's.

Enough could never be said about that.

[Brit]

I think the deaths of innocent people by the authority supposed to be protecting them speaks for itself.

[SpicyTexan]

Quote[/b] (Merika @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 9:46 am)]Yeah.....cause the people at the WTC were all packing M-16's.

Enough could never be said about that.
Merika, this is how those liberals think, at least. I would love to see all liberals march to Iraq and fight against our soldiers, sicne they love the terrists so much! Sometimes I just want to shout at the liberals:"Don't just be a big talking head, put your life in harm's way to defend your cause."

[Brit]

Do you mean me?

[Merika]

Brit,
As voiced by SpicyTexan we hear way too much in defense of what we rightfully consider our enemy by those who should know better.

It is possible that the news network you have in the UK is not giving the whole truth on situations like you stated in your post. I think this is THE major problem in Europe and Canada as well. Do they really think Al Jazeera news is not going to have a negative slant?

I know a great many people in the military who have and are serving in Iraq. *They are NOT murderers. They are simply soldiers in a war and war isn't fair or pretty. Innocent people DO die.

However, for every dozen who die....thousands are liberated. *It's a great cost.....but a necessary one.

They wouldn't be bombing anywhere that it was not thought to be for the greater good. I'm not minimizing the carnage...I'm only saying it comes with the territory.

[myownthinker]

What exactly were the facts? I wouldnt think we would just fire on a bunch of Iraqui citizens. It probably was an accident or we hit the wrong target. We dont fire on innocent civilians - Thats not the American way. That being said there is nothing honorable about killing innocent civilians. If it were my family member lying there in the street - I wouldnt see it as a necessary sacrifice. Thats a bunch of hogwash. When innocent lives are lost it's a tragedy - not a sacrifice.

[McMahon]

Quote[/b] (myownthinker @ Sep. 13, 2004 -- 12:28 pm)]What exactly were the facts?
Brit, are you referring to the incident when a armored vehicle was left with weapons inside and the US troops decided to prevent locals from looting weapons from the vehicle? I know it would be quite convenient for a news agency to omit an important fact.

[lpara]

I'm moving this post to war on terror as it is related to that.

[lpara]

Brit, when you use "quotes" it would also be good to provide the link to where you are taking the quotes from.

[lpara]

<span style='font-family:comic sans ms'>Here is a link to an article on it: Fierce Day in Baghdad Kills Dozens (http://www.gopusa.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.pl?act=ST; f=18;t=14679;st=0;&#entry110496)</span>

[Brit]

That link is quite biased. I read it in a well established, liberal newspaper and the report was wriiten by an Iraqi born, British journalist who was injured by a bullet shot at him by an American Bradley armoured vehicle and helicopters. If you want a site for this newspaper, it is http://www.guardian.co.uk

[SpicyTexan]

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 10:49 am)]That link is quite biased. I read it in a well established, liberal newspaper
oh? so the liberal newspaper is NOT biased? since when?

[Merika]

Quote[/b] (McMahon @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 12:36 pm)]Quote[/b] (myownthinker @ Sep. 13, 2004 -- 12:28 pm)]What exactly were the facts?
Brit, are you referring to the incident when a armored vehicle was left with weapons inside and the US troops decided to prevent locals from looting weapons from the vehicle? I know it would be quite convenient for a news agency to omit an important fact.
The area is a stronghold of Saddam Hussein loyalists and has been the scene of recent fierce clashes.

Instead of three hours after the ambush, when the people on the scene were mainly curious locals and journalist, the US said the helicopter strike was at 0730, 40 minutes after the Bradley was attacked at 0650.

In the first explanation of events offered by the US military early on Sunday evening, the helicopter was said to have blown up the wrecked Bradley &quot;to prevent looting and harm to the Iraqi people&quot;.



EXACTLY McMahon!

Article.... (http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php? id=091404014710) ....and this is even with a negative slant on US.

[nina123]

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 9:40 am)]On Sunday, 13 Iraqis were killed and dozens injured in Baghdad when US helicopters fired on a crowd of unarmed civilians.


[from lpara's link]
Many of those killed in Baghdad died when a U.S. helicopter fired toward a disabled U.S. Bradley fighting vehicle as crowds swarmed around it, cheering, throwing stones and waving the black and yellow sunburst banner of Iraq's most-feared terror organization, Tawhid and Jihad.
Brit,

It seems you are guilty of selective reporting. *Turns out, looks like a terrorist organization was involved.

Please leave the propaganda at the door. We welcome your posts, but not when it is biased and missing important facts. *
All it does it just further illustrates that people like you have no interest in truth, but have an agenda to push.

[McMahon]

To be fair to Brit, I saw a Swiss Newswire from ATS (in French) reading &quot;Many stunned after US shoots at crowd&quot;. The article reported that a Bradley vehicle was involved. If there is something to learn from it, it is better to get information from several sources, correlate facts and read more than the headlines.

[nina123]

Do you all know how much time and trouble it takes to prep a chopper for flight? As well as have a pilot suit up... fly his butt all the way out there... all just to shoot a bunch of innocent civilians for no reason?

I dunno if any of you here know any soldiers, but I know many, and they all are our brothers, sisters, fathers, and mothers. They are Americans just like you and me.

I find it very difficult to believe that our American soldiers would go through all that trouble just to kill a bunch of civilians for no reason.

The only group that ever does something like that are muslim terrorists.

[Brit]

Propaganda. Oh, so you mean the weapons of mass destruction? That old tale spun off by your government to make the war in Iraq seem so brave. And just because the report i used was suggesting that maybe the US make mistakes, its terrorist? What happened to being allowed to have opinions? Same as Coldplay on MTV or whatever, we just get censored out for not believing what george bush tells us. so just close your ears and eyes, and pretend that we're doing the right thing. Try to pretend that bush isnt the real terrorist. He even pulled out of the AIDs project, as collaberates with shell the petrol company, the two things that cause more deaths than all terrorists groups altogether. Personally, I'd rather read the truth and base my life around real people, not god.

[McMahon]

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 13, 2004 -- 1:07 pm)]What happened to being allowed to have opinions?
Opinions are fair as long as they are stated as such (i.e. not presented as facts) and backed by facts. Please note it requires quite a bit of facts to get an accurate opinion.

[SpicyTexan]

Quote[/b] (nina123 @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 11:06 am)]The only group that ever does something like that are muslim terrorists.
well said!

[nina123]

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 11:07 am)]What happened to being allowed to have opinions? Same as Coldplay on MTV or whatever, we just get censored out for not believing what george bush tells us.
Brit,

It's not censorship when people don't want to hear your faulty reporting. Censorship is when the GOVERNMENT doesn't allow you to say things by throwing you in jail.

Seeing as you and Coldplay are not in jail, I would conclude that you have not been censored. Your freedom of speech does not include forcing other people to listen to you.

I guess freedom only works one way in your mind right? People must be forced to listen to your biased propaganda. And if we point out that it's faulty, oh, we are censoring you!

[jimmyjoebob]

Brit,

Quote[/b] ]On Sunday, 13 Iraqis were killed and dozens injured in Baghdad when US helicopters fired on a crowd of unarmed civilians.

I agree with another post that you haven't provided a link to this story. Are we to take your word as fact, seeing that you haven't acknowledged a presence on location of the event described?

Quote[/b] ]&quot;One of the three men raised his head and looked around the empty streets in astonishment. Then he slowly started moving his head to the ground, rested it on his arms, and stretched towards something he could see. He wanted help, but no-one helped. The streets were empty and silent and the men lay there dying together.&quot;

Perhaps he was stretching towards an automatic rifle or rocket launcher, perhaps not. Do we really know?

Quote[/b] ]&quot;Take pictures - show the world the American democracy&quot;
Enough said.

No, not nearly enough. You have the same rhetorical sound of the ghosts of Vietnam. I can still hear their hateful propaganda ringing in my ears, and see them burning their draft cards. http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/barf.gif

Do you suggest that not a single innocent civilian were killed or injured in Germany, France, Britain, or any of the German occupied territories in WWII? Of course there were. It's a product of war. A tragic, undeniable consequence of the struggle for freedom. When war occurs in a country struggling for freedom, freedom's sacrifices are extracted upon them. Is it not enough that our young troops also die in these exchanges? Should we allow our enemy to bring that war to our own soil where we would then see our own innocent laying in the streets dieing?
http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Merika]

He even pulled out of the AIDs project

I think 2.7 billion dollars is MORE than enough to help AID victims in Africa. *I also think it's fair to only give those particular finances to countries which meet basic human right guidelines.

This isn't even just a Bush issue. *This is an American tax payer issue. *How much are all the other 'loving sympathy riddled' countries contributing? *I'm tired of carrying their load.

[jmriggs1972]

From the article Merika linked to in a previous post, by no means a pro-American site...

Quote[/b] ]According to media reports, the fighting started at about 0440 (0040 GMT) in Haifa Street, a notorious snipers' alley on the west bank of the Tigris that is out of US military control.

The Bradley was hit by a roadside bomb after it had raced to the scene following mortar bombs being launched at the nearby Green Zone, seat of the Iraqi government and US forces.

Some people were celebrating the attack, others were curiously onlookers

Gun battles reportedly raged around the wreck for about an hour. The attackers fired on the American rescue crew as they evacuated the stricken vehicle.

That's enough said!!

[lpara]

Quote[/b] ]That old tale spun off by your government to make the war in Iraq seem so brave

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/lol.gif Your government had the same intel and deduced the same thing (Thank God for their help! )

[myownthinker]

This is a great debate. Love it when two sides argue it out. Thats what makes a country great - multiple viewpoints on everything.

[lpara]

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif Welcome nina123 http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/exclamation.gif Thanks for joining. Great input! Keep on Keepin' on! http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin2.gif

[Brit]

I agree with the person that said arguments are good, just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, here is one of my relevant song by my favourite band:

Don't wanna be an American idiot.
Don't want a nation that under the new media.
And can you hear the sound of hysteria?
The subliminal mind**** America.

Welcome to a new kind of tension.
All across the alien nation.
Everything isn't meant to be okay.
Television dreams of tomorrow.
We're not the ones who're meant to follow.
Convincing them to walk you.

Well maybe I'm the ###### America.
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda.
Now everybody do the propaganda.
And sing along in the age of paranoia.

Welcome to a new kind of tension.
All across the alien nation.
Everything isn't meant to be okay.
Television dreams of tomorrow.
We're not the ones who're meant to follow.
Convincing them to walk you.

Don't wanna be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information nation of hysteria.
It's going out to idiot America

Edited to comply with board rules ~ Terri

[Terri]

Brit, please click on the rules button and read them. I've edited your post to bring it into compliance.

In future posts please rely on facts and logic to prove your points. Namecalling will not carry the day with our members. It simply points out that you cannot back up your arguments in any other way.

Also, please provide links to the news articles that you quote. Our copyright policy is #5 in the Board rules.

[lpara]

Brit, so THAT'S where you're coming from . . . and here I thought you joined http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/gopusa.gif because you wanted to LEARN something for a class.

[Brit]

Right. Only in Britain we're allowed to say naughty bad words whenever we want. Sorry. And when was i namecalling? You're just making things up now. http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Brit]

Also, it is for school. But some of the views you people have are so mind-numbingly, (ive been told im not allowed to swear) against what mine are. I felt the need to say something. Hey, its interesting to look at different views aint it? Im not having a go, im just putting my point of view across. Im sure we can still be friends. http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jimmyjoebob]

Brit,

You sound like an anarchist. Is there any truth to that statement? Your crticism seems to propose that instead of innocent deaths occurring due to the fallout of war and the price for democracy, that you would prefer innocent deaths by design of a dictatorship or worse, anarchy.

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Original Rebel]

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/star2.gif *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/star2.gif *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/star2.gif

Brit, you sound like a brain-burnt toker from the '70's, you and your &quot;favorite group&quot;. *What a lovely personality you exhibit. *I don't understand for the life of me why anybody here would give you the time of day.

Constructive debate is one thing...the nasty, vituperous puke that you are dispensing is quite another. *You appear to be from another planet...good thing, I'd really not want to claim you as an American. *You just ain't good enough. *Why don't you just take your twisted crap to some other site that might appreciate you.

Quote[/b] ] Merika:
I think 2.7 billion dollars is MORE than enough to help AID victims in Africa. *I also think it's fair to only give those particular finances to countries which meet basic human right guidelines.

This isn't even just a Bush issue. *This is an American tax payer issue. *How much are all the other 'loving sympathy riddled' countries contributing? *I'm tired of carrying their load.

You're right on Merika. *Besides, in a huge amount of cases, the AIDS problem is a morals breach. *I'm sick of paying for the perverted behavior of some of these morons that don't care to control themselves.

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bird16.gif

[lpara]

<span style='font-family:comic sans ms'>To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you must also be well-mannered.

Voltaire</span>

[Brit]

Hey, this is me being controlled. When are you going to wake up and realise that (shock, horror) its not just me? Milllions think the way i do. Millions. Im not an American thank god. Im not particularly proud of Britain (the place i was born and live) there are some a**holes that live there. The kind that shove dog faeces through muslim's doors and send asylum seekers back to their countries and ultimately their deaths. Britain's government lied about the weapon's of mass destruction to go to some petty war. There are more countries that live in such sqaulor and devastation, but Iraq was chosen, funny that we chose that and it coincidentally has a precious reserve of oil. I dont want to argue using plain bitterness, and i try to care that you consider me &quot;not good enough&quot; to be American. You make me sick about the AIDs thing. Who's twisted now? I suppose right-wing, straight, white Americans are the ideal race? Well you know who the last person who's idea that was dont you.

[Brit]

I believe in Democracy. But im not an anarchist. By the way, thanks jimmyjoebob for not being nasty to me and asking me a sensible question.

[jmriggs1972]

Brit, you have unfortunately fallen into the all-too-familiar stance of most liberals when they are faced with facts...that of name calling and comparing Conservatives to Hitler and the Nazis (as implied in your last post). For the most part, you have received very gracious and polite responses to your posts here and most will continue to do so, even if you choose to post vitriol as you just did. I dare say that we would receive the same treatment in a website devoted to the liberal agenda if we were to go in and ask questions such as you have. Your original post asked for an educated history of the Republican party's stance on Civil rights issues throughout our Country's history. However, each of your successive posts beyond that have become more and more obviously pre-disposed towards a leftist agenda. Please be more honest from now on and you will most certainly continue to receive mostly polite responses. However, continue to try and deceive, as you most certainly have done here, and you will most likely be met with similar unwelcome responses.

[JJBiener]

It never fails. If you push the Left far enough, they resort to Hitler. It is there ultimate trump card. When reason fails them, they resort accusations of racism and nazism. They are amazingly consistent.

Brit, for your information many people on this forum myself included are not white. That you would assume otherwise shows how little you know of this forum or the GOP in general.

If you would like to participate here, why don't you try opening your mind and accepting the fact not everything you have been spoonfed your entire life is accurate. The people who fed you the information have their own agenda and their own reasons for believing as they do. If you would open your eyes and take a good look around you will find that your petty little hatreds are the product of ignorance and not righteous indignation.

[Brit]

Im not deceiving you. You'll be calling me a terrorist next. Im not spoonfed either. Im basing everything im saying on what you and bush have been saying. Yes, I agree that not all of you are the same. Im just stereotyping you, as you have no doubt clearly stereotyped me. However, most of you appear to live up to that stereotype. The statements about people with AIDs made me sick to my very core. Can you blame me for being angry about saying that people deserve to die? What makes me laugh are that most of you are pro-life, yet people with an incurable disease - most are children born with it - deserve everything they get? How does that make sense?

[paige]

Brit, what is your main purpose for posting on this site? Cut to the chase or move on. Posts like your really irritate me when they lack facts, a logical opinion, a stated question, or more importantly.. A POINT.

[Basheva]

I was one of the first to answer Brit on several threads. *I thought the questions asked were good ones and that I was dealing with someone who was truly interested in learning about other viewpoints.

However, I see from reading here that I was fooled. *I am an old lady, but still a pushover apparently. *

As for the weapons of mass destruction:

Brit said:Quote[/b] ]Propaganda. Oh, so you mean the weapons of mass destruction? That old tale spun off by your government to make the war in Iraq seem so brave.

Not only did the intelligence services of the USA and the UK believe that there were WMD's in Iraq - they were also thought to be there by the intelilgence services of:

The United Nations
Saudi Arabia
Israel
Germany
France
Russia
Egypt
Denmark
Netherlands
Italy
Spain

in fact every intelligenence service in the world believed it. *It was not a far fetched supposition because Saddam was known to have had them and used them against his own people as well as the Iranians.

And, we still don't know that they weren't there. *They might very well have been moved.

But why am I bothering? *Brit is obviously not reading with an interest to learning, but merely to use this an opportunity to offend. *

When one is screaming at people, then one can't be listening. *And without listening there is no learning.

In closing, Brit, you did mention that you were very glad you were not an American.

Need I say, I join you in that happiness. *I am glad you aren't either. *It's beyond rudeness to claim you want to learn, entice people to respond and then abuse that response.

If, in the future you ever really do want to explore other opinions rather than pushing your own, please do.

***I came back to add....

That everytime you say &quot;bush&quot; - you offend me. He is President Bush.

Thank you.

[Terri]

Would someone please point me to the post where one of our members said that people with AIDS deserve to die, as Brit has claimed.

I admit I scanned this thread hastily but I do not see that.

[Brit]

I did not say you were a pushover. You were of extremely useful help to me, thankyou. I am only trying to get my view across to those who argue with me. Im only 16 and have definitely had a more limited view of the word than you have, but ive seen enough already. Im fed up of both of our governments, there is evidence that there are no WMDs, and you have to admit there is something very fishy about it all. Plus the pictures today of a dead Iraqi lying in a pool of blood, arm stretched out towards his dead son, having been shot by americans made more unimaginably sad. Thus making me come on here in a wave of fury, sorry Basheva.

[Brit]

&quot;Besides, in a huge amount of cases, the AIDS problem is a morals breach. I'm sick of paying for the perverted behavior of some of these morons that don't care to control themselves.&quot; - Original Rebel

There's your answer Terri.

[myownthinker]

Name calling is over the bounds - there are better ways to argue than that - except when referring to politicians(I mean crooks / thieves / corrupted evil). All viewpoints should be welcome - thats what makes this country great. The statement that innocent civilians die during war is a sacrifice for freedom - if you are talking about military men and women - yes I agree. They are brave and honorable and are underappreciated in my viewpoint.
Innocent civilians however are not a sacrifice - thats a load. An innocent child killed is not a sacrifice. If that's my kid in my own country lying on the street wounded or worse - - I am very angry - so angry - well I wont go there.
But then were all those people innocent civilians? Is this proven?
What a mess over there - that I do believe. I pray for our troops to come home safely soon. I really have my doubts whether democracy is going to work over there and if it is I say let those people fight for it if they want it that badly.

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]&quot;Besides, in a huge amount of cases, the AIDS problem is a morals breach. *I'm sick of paying for the perverted behavior of some of these morons that don't *care to control themselves.&quot; - Original Rebel

There's your answer Terri.

No, I'm sorry. You are wrong, Brit. OR did not say anyone deserved to die.

AIDS is definitely spread by irresponsible sexual behavior and illicit drug use. If you don't know that then you need to pay better attention in your classes.

It is a preventable disease in a great majority of cases.

[Brit]

I did answer you, see above.

[Terri]

Yes, thank you. I edited my post to reflect that fact.

[SORinTexas]

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 11:04 am)]Do you mean me?
To answer that question- Yes! It is obvious from your post here that it is exactly people like you who are so anti-American that others here are referring to.(my opinion)
You will believe anything that anybody says as long as it is anti-American in its point of view. Americans do not try to kill any innocent people *period. These peole that you were referring to were not innocent people. This is a hot bed of enemy activity. When a US vehicle is bombed and soldiers attacked we are going to fight back and defend those soldiers. Any one that is in the area during that attack is either there because they are the enemy or they are journalists that are covering the enemy which in that case they are subject to be killed just as our journalists that cover our troops are subject to be killed by our enemies. If a civilian happens to wander into the area during a firefight he is either very stupid or he is really not a civilian. A civilian that wanders into a fire zone has no business being there and takes their life into their own hands when doing so. Most civilians that do this are in fact looters and are looking to steal property that doesn't belong to them in the first place. If they happen to get themselve killed in the process of committing a crime thats just too bad, they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Quote[/b] ]Im sure we can still be friends
I don't think so!

Quote[/b] ]Im not an American thank god

Yes indeed, Thank God you are Not an American!

Quote[/b] ]You make me sick about the AIDs thing
You make me sick with your liberal biased communist propaganda that you are shoveling out. Your reference to the Aids thing is just a typical example of this.

[Brit]

wow, myownthinker, thats a good view. I agree with you about the mess part. Its good that you look at both sides. I can see how the war is a good thing, but mostly its overcome by bad. E.g. the reoccurring humiliation and torture of Iraqis by US and UK soldiers.

[Brit]

You obviously have no idea about anything at all. If that was in America you'd all be up in arms. Im sorry, tell the parents of that little boy who lost his legs that he is an idiot and wandered into the line of fire. What you say makes no sense at all, go home and put your head in a paper bag. The cicilians went over because they heard explosions, and were concerned about their safety. How idiotic of them. Silly civilians, jumping in the way of whatever the US thought they were going to achieve. They won't get a pretty grave like US soldiers, just a dirt one that no-one will remember. And attempting to humiliate me, real mature. Propaganda my arse. Im telling the truth.

[myownthinker]

It was necessary to get rid of Hussein, and when I say it is a mess over there - every war is a mess. I support our troops and pray for their safety - but I also understand when a situation is bad. But I believe we have to finish the job now - and I do believe the world is a better place without Hussein. On the other hand I havent trusted our politicians since the nixon era. I myself actually lean to the right as I am pro life - I believe life begins at conception.

[Brit]

I think your right about &quot;we've started it, now we have to finish it&quot;. And about politicians. i guess you're not a bush fan? Im pro abortion so i guess i am a liberal (not a good thing to say here!). I would argue with you about abortion but i dont want to because you're the most sensible person here.

[jimmyjoebob]

Quote[/b] ]And attempting to humiliate me, real mature. Propaganda my arse. Im telling the truth.

No Brit, you are telling a digested, Anti-American, Anti-War
point of view. You are not telling the truth....and you know it. Now if you are as smart as you think you are, you would be humble enough and mature enough to admit it.



http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[SpicyTexan]

Quote[/b] (SORinTexas @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 1:48 pm)]Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 11:04 am)]Do you mean me?
To answer that question- Yes!
well...she is just way too slow to realize whom I meant in my post earlier.

Yes, thank God, Brit is NOT an American!

[Original Rebel]

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/star2.gif *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/star2.gif *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/star2.gif

Quote[/b] ] myself:
&quot;You're right on Merika. *Besides, in a huge amount of cases, the AIDS problem is a morals breach. *I'm sick of paying for the perverted behavior of some of these morons that don't *care to control themselves.&quot;

Nice, Brit. *You just proved that you can't even understand and interpret a statement at face value and for its true content. *Don't you put words in my mouth!

It's too bad you can't admit that my statement is the truth. *And here's another truth for you. *Countless studies and reports have been issued as to the major cause of the spread of AIDS, and NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE. *They keep on doing what's killing them (again, I am referring to those it applies to)!!!

If you want to talk about a sickening stance, you're statement about being pro-choice makes me want to hurl. I suppose your bleeding heart for the so-called &quot;innocent&quot; Iraqis dying within arm's reach of unavailable help is supposed to make me cry. *Well try this for size. *When you can advocate and/or defend something as INDEFENSIBLE as the cold-blooded murder of a baby human being WHO CANNOT FIGHT BACK, CANNOT WALK AWAY, CANNOT DEFEND ITSELF IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM - then you're one sick puppy.

Your defense of the indefensible is pure crap. *You should be glad that your mother allowed you to live so you can spew your vitriol all over us. *Well, you don't impress me...and I don't intend to waste another minute on a soul such as yours. *If the others in this forum wish to continue to parry with you - they have my blessing. *But as for me ... you are not worth it.

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bird16.gif

[SpicyTexan]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
Well, you don't impress me...and I don't intend to waste another minute on a soul such as yours. If the others in this forum wish to continue to parry with you - they have my blessing. But as for me ... you are not worth it.
&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

I'll second it http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[MudPuppy]

Quote[/b] (nina123 @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 11:19 am)]It's not censorship when people don't want to hear your faulty reporting. *Censorship is when the GOVERNMENT doesn't allow you to say things by throwing you in jail.

Seeing as you and Coldplay are not in jail, I would conclude that you have not been censored. *Your freedom of speech does not include forcing other people to listen to you. *
Am I free to disagree?

Can I say you're wrong? Mis-informed? Naive? Even a bit silly? Yet I say none of these things, but answer with the information I have.

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 9:58 am)]I think the deaths of innocent people by the authority supposed to be protecting them speaks for itself.
And what, pray tell, did you hear said?

War is what it is… It is full of cruelty, death, suffering, horror, and deprivation. So-called &quot;innocents&quot; have always died in wars, and they always will. There's nothing which we can do to eliminate that, try though we may. War will always be fought in a fog. All wars, no matter how carefully planned, or skillfully executed, will be full of errors and blunders which get people killed unintentionally. It is inherently dangerous business, that's the nature of the beast. There's nothing we human beings are able to do to totally eliminate this. We live in an imperfect world, filled with imperfect, fallible human beings.

I find that, generally life is fair; sometimes it's just not so cool. We cannot make war to be something it simply is not. Although very well trained, an army is still pretty much a blunt instrument, and war is a batch process. Therefore, even our best efforts will prove deficient when it comes to protecting the life of the innocent, while at the same time punishing the guilty. But should we delay the employment of the force of arms in expectation of a more perfect justice, we shall most certainly be found in want of receiving any justice at all. For that wicked lawlessness and injustice, which doesn't concern itself which such flawlessness perfection in employing violence to achieve its ends, will have subjugated the entire earth by that time. So doing nothing is not an option.

Quote[/b] (McMahon @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 10:36 am)]Quote[/b] (myownthinker @ Sep. 13, 2004 -- 12:28 pm)]What exactly were the facts?
Brit, are you referring to the incident when a armored vehicle was left with weapons inside and the US troops decided to prevent locals from looting weapons from the vehicle? I know it would be quite convenient for a news agency to omit an important fact.
Moreover, I concur with those in this thread who say &quot;what exactly are the facts and circumstances&quot; which lead to these deaths of so-called innocents? Who were they really? I have reason to believe al-Jazeera is NOT necessarily the best source of information on that score. *

So, if I'm to be angry (and I am), I'm angry at those whose threats and attacks against us have compelled us to take up arms in the first place, in defense of ourselves, to destroy another human beings life from the earth. Were there no cause for this war, none would have to suffer its affects and die by force of arms, innocent or otherwise.

[LKH]

Quote[/b] ]Im only 16 and have definitely had a more limited view of the word than you have, but ive seen enough already.

Is that &quot;16&quot; perhaps a typo, Brit? Pardon me for pointing it out, but I get the idea that you are just a wee bit advanced past 16.

I do agree, however, with your statement that you've had a limited view of the world, and I presume that the word you meant to type was &quot;world&quot; instead of &quot;word&quot;. That's why I thought you might have made a typo in your age as well. I am sure you wouldn't want to mislead anyone about your age.

Quote[/b] ] Im sorry, tell the parents of that little boy who lost his legs that he is an idiot and wandered into the line of fire.

Quote[/b] ]&quot;One of the three men raised his head and looked around the empty streets in astonishment. Then he slowly started moving his head to the ground, rested it on his arms, and stretched towards something he could see. He wanted help, but no-one helped. The streets were empty and silent and the men lay there dying together.&quot;

Quote[/b] ]Plus the pictures today of a dead Iraqi lying in a pool of blood, arm stretched out towards his dead son, having been shot by americans made more unimaginably sad. Thus making me come on here in a wave of fury, sorry Basheva.

Now, you have exhibited such an extensive degree of compassion by referencing these victims. Would I be wrong to assume that you felt the same about the 3000 who perished in the Trade Center and in the Pentagon and in the field in Pennsylvania on 09-11-01 in the USA?

Oh, wait! You were only 13 years old at that time. Perhaps you weren't as focused on terrorism at such a tender age. You were probably just drawing Hitler mustaches on Prime Minister Tony Blair in those days.

Quote[/b] ]Im pro abortion so i guess i am a liberal (not a good thing to say here!).

No big surprise. I think you've categorized yourself perfectly! I actually could have guessed that you were (1) A Liberal and (2) Pro abortion.

Quote[/b] ]The statements about people with AIDs made me sick to my very core.

You might want to brush up on the amount of money the United States is throwing into that black hole, Brit! Maybe you could do your term paper on it.

A person with an open mind, such as you stated yourself to be when you first posted here, can learn a lot from this group. An individual with a less than honorable agenda who is actually not interested in learning will meet with only verbal combativeness when their country and their President are accosted.

[Brit]

Wow. I certainly have caused something havent I. I'll tell you what though, standing in a crowd at a festival, with 85,000 people shouting &quot;George bush is a wanker&quot; is pretty special. That may be immature, but it proves my point. Hes going to win this election, but dont think for one second that the rest of the world are happy about this. As for abortion, I think that a woman has the right over her own body, and if she thinks that she cannot go through with labour and look after a child, then abortion is the best option. I believe in a multi-cultural, non-guns, Non-violent society and yes I am only 16. I have a damn sight better view of how our world should be than you lot. Im not an american idiot. Not all americans are, just some who are so blind to everything but a f****** flag. Im not the monster you think i am, 9/11 was tragic and horrific, but it was a kick up the backside for security. So to everyone: shut up, if you want to argue then argue, but let me argue back. Im entitled to my opinion and nothing you can say can change my mind.

[lpara]

You flatter yourself

A fool utterth all his mind, but a wise man keepeth it in 'til afterwards.

[Brit]

For Gods sake. &quot;you flatter yourself&quot;. WTF?

[Terri]

Quote[/b] ]with 85,000 people shouting &quot;George bush is a wanker&quot; is pretty special.
Yes, that is an unusually large gathering of rude, immature, uninformed people all in one place. I guess that makes it special.

You may certainly remain uninformed, except by a mob, as long as you like.

Control your rudeness though or we will let you take it elsewhere. Comprende?

A kick up the backside for security? In other words it was America's fault for not preventing the 19 Muslims who attacked us. http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/shake.gif

[nina123]

Quote[/b] (MudPuppy @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 2:52 pm)]Quote[/b] (nina123 @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 11:19 am)]It's not censorship when people don't want to hear your faulty reporting. *Censorship is when the GOVERNMENT doesn't allow you to say things by throwing you in jail.

Seeing as you and Coldplay are not in jail, I would conclude that you have not been censored. *Your freedom of speech does not include forcing other people to listen to you. *
Am I free to disagree?

Can I say you're wrong? Mis-informed? Naive? Even a bit silly? Yet I say none of these things, but answer with the information I have.
Mudpuppy,

Of COURSE you're free to disagree. That was my whole point. But just because people don't want to listen to you doesn't mean that you are being CENSORED.

By all means if you want to say something, you are free to do so! But people are also free to tell you to shut up if they don't like what you say. That's not censorship. It's called a reaction.

Censorship is when the GOVERNMENT does it.

So what exactly is your point by posing this question anyway?

[Brit]

NO IM NOT IMPLYING THAT DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT IN VERY BIG LETTERS I AM NOT A F****** IDIOT GEORGE BUSH IS IM TRYING TO PROVE A POINT THAT SENSIBLE, MATURE PEOPLE AND IMMATURE PEOPLE ALIKE HATE HIM. EVEN FELLOW REPUBLICANS LIKE YOU'RE GOOD SELF.

[LKH]

Quote[/b] ]So to everyone: shut up, if you want to argue then argue, but let me argue back. Im entitled to my opinion and nothing you can say can change my mind.

That part about not changing your mind is quite evident. We rest our case. You did not come here to learn.

[Brit]

I meant, if you'd bother to ask me before stating this so brassily, you cant change my opinions. But you can change my mind about the kind of people you are. With the exception of one or two, well done, you've convinced me of what i knew all along. Anyway, arguments are a good way of learning? Are they not? Ive learned loads from these arguments.

[LKH]

Quote[/b] ]But you can change my mind about the kind of people you are.

And please explain to us why we should?

[jackbenimble]

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 3:33 pm)]Hes going to win this election, but dont think for one second that the rest of the world are happy about this.
And we are supposed to care what you or the rest of the world thinks about who WE choose as the head of OUR state? I don't think so!

It is none of your or their business. We don't tell the English or the French or the Germans or the Canadians who to elect. We just accept and try to work with whatever socialist you all choose to put in office to drag you further and further down the path of world irrelevance as socialism leads you inexorably towards the third world.

The fact that France and Germany are against President Bush reaffirms my decision to vote for him!

There will also be a sizeable segment of the American population that won't be happy. So what? I was profoundly disappointed when Bill Clinton was elected twice. They will get over it just as I did. That is a reality of Democracy that somebody is always dissappointed. Perhaps in the next election they will offer somebody with better credentials than a 4 month stint in Vietnam followed by near treason and then 20 years of flip flops and failure to accomplish anything except racking up the most liberal voting record in the US Senate.

Regards,
Jack

[jimmyjoebob]

Brit,

Quote[/b] ]I meant, if you'd bother to ask me before stating this so brassily, you cant change my opinions.....

So you didn't come here to try and learn anything.

Quote[/b] ]...But you can change my mind about the kind of people you are. With the exception of one or two, well done, you've convinced me of what i knew all along.

You mean we can change your mind about the kind of people we are only if we agree with your views. Otherwise, we're
just flag waving , uninformed, American idiots?

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, arguments are a good way of learning? Are they not? Ive learned loads from these arguments.

I don't think you've learned anything. You brought everything you already know with you though. Rudeness, brashness, sarcasim, foolishness. Just another fool and his folly. You probably loved Clinton too,...huh?

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Brit]

Its like talking to a bloody brick wall sometimes. You told Iraq who to vote for though, in effect. Third world? LEDC is the politically correct term, and i think Britain is about as far from that as possible. Which is not something im proud of. I wish i lived in a multi cultural society where paranoid people didnt think terrorists were going to come and eat their babies which is what they've drilled into you. Ethiopia is a LEDC, ravaged by AIDs and poverty, does any rich fat cat with a gun on his shoulder and the american flag waving proudly in his hand care? Rhetorical question. what the f*** you're talking about i dont know.

[Terri]

Brit, in the real world there are consequences to one's actions.

I've asked you several times to tone it down. If you cannot speak without the F-word, even with asterisks, then we'll just put you on time out until you can.

You may reach me at forumadmin@gopusa.co m if you decide that you can exhibit some maturity and self control in this forum.

Until that happens we will do quite well without one know-it-all, Brit.

Chill.

[LKH]

Quote[/b] ]NO IM NOT IMPLYING THAT DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT IN VERY BIG LETTERS I AM NOT A F****** IDIOT GEORGE BUSH IS IM TRYING TO PROVE A POINT THAT SENSIBLE, MATURE PEOPLE AND IMMATURE PEOPLE ALIKE HATE HIM. EVEN FELLOW REPUBLICANS LIKE YOU'RE GOOD SELF.

Brit, when you scream like this, I personally would appreciate proper punctuation in your sentence structure.

I know a reasonable 16-year-old, wise beyond your years, wouldn't be appearing to state what it appears you're saying about the President of the United States, because if you were, it would reflect upon yourself as a person of no reasonable credibility and absent of respect, even for yourself.

I suggest that you take a course in etiquette and refine your sharp edges. I have known some lovely British people and none had the hard edges that you exhibit. At only 16, you have your life ahead of you, and you could serve yourself in these tender years by deferring to those who deserve respect.

I also suggest that adolescents do experience a period of time when by some grace of a mysterious power are instilled with super intelligence. If that applies in your case, it will pass. If not, there's a rough road ahead.

With this, as someone so aptly stated earlier in this thread, I shall not waste another minute of my time with this conversation.

[jimmyjoebob]

Quote[/b] ]Its like talking to a bloody brick wall sometimes.

Join the class.

Quote[/b] ]You told Iraq who to vote for though, in effect.

Where is the information you used to confirm this as a fact.
How could you have established it as a fact since no elections have taken place yet.

Quote[/b] ]Ethiopia is a LEDC, ravaged by AIDs and poverty, does any rich fat cat with a gun on his shoulder and the american flag waving proudly in his hand care?


I'm unfamiliar with this acronym you are using, LEDC. Explain.
The real question for you should be, do you care? What have YOU done to allieviate the suffering in Ethiopia? Pointing fingers at others and crying about how little they've done is a bit hypocritical if you've done nothing yourself. I can also assure you that most US soldiers are far from rich fat cats.

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mtnwoods]

Someone on this forum once wrote: &quot;Profanity is an evidence of the lack of sufficient vocabulary and brains.&quot; The proof is in Brit's posts.

[SORinTexas]

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 2:59 pm)]Im sorry, tell the parents of that little boy who lost his legs that he is an idiot and wandered into the line of fire. What you say makes no sense at all, go home and put your head in a paper bag. The cicilians went over because they heard explosions, and were concerned about their safety. How idiotic of them. Silly civilians, jumping in the way of whatever the US thought they were going to achieve.

Actually, if I was in Iraq I might tell the parents of the children that they are idiots to allow their children to enter into the line of fire. Unfortunately this wouldn't do any good because these people are hiding behind their children while they are shooting at our troops. You must already have your head in a paper bag if you don't know that this is the case. That is obvious from you ridiculous posts here. Civilians do not go running towards an explosion when they are concerned about their safety, they run away from it!! *The people that are running towards the explosions as I stated in my first post are either the attackers wanting to kill our wounded GI's or looters that hope to steal equipment from the vehicle or belongings off of our dead or wounded soldiers. If you had any common sense you too would realize this. But no, of course you believe everything that the liberal media spews out. *

As far as your garbage about AIDS, etc. that you keep spewing out. The United States Of America has done more and given more to fight the Aids epidemic than probably all the other countries in the world combined. As for your slandering of President Bush, he has requested more money be spent on Aids research than any other President and as far as I know more than any other World Leader. This from the Man that you hate so much. This just shows how misinformed you are. Bush wants more spent on Aids Research and Funding (http://www.hivdent.org/publicp/ppBSHAMM022003.htm)

The US spends more money on Aids research than on Cancer research although cancer kills more people than Aids does here in the US. Aids Research (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/aug97/867245561.Vi.r.html)

People like you just love to hate men like our President Bush but your reasons for doing so make no sense at all. They are reasons that are being supplied to you by our enemies and you choose to believe them over us. So, that leads the question. When push comes to shove which side do you take. If you say neither you do not understand the problem, there is no neither side. It is one or the other. You either choose Good as the United States and Great Britain and other Countiies that are allied with us have done, or you choose Evil,like Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups and other regimes across the world have done. I sincerely hope that you realize that before it is too late for you.

[cob]

[QUOTE]
Brit

Wow. I certainly have caused something haven’t I. I'll tell you what though, standing in a crowd at a festival, with 85,000 people shouting &quot;George bush is a wanker&quot; is pretty special. That may be immature, but it proves my point. Hes going to win this election, but dont think for one second that the rest of the world are happy about this.
_

I will agree, you proved your point of being immature, by standing in a group of 85,000? sheeple, all shouting &quot;George Bush is a wanker&quot; and thinking it was pretty special. Was the festival sponsored by A.N.S.W.E.R. ?

I will also agree, President Bush will be re-elected on November 2nd, but don't think for one second, this American idiot, blind to anything but a f****** flag, gives a flying fig as to whether the rest of the world is happy or not. The day all the socialist/communist hordes throughout the world realize they are just as much at risk as we American idiots from the Islamic fundamental zealots, it may very well be too late for them.

I have followed your rude and childish posts since this thread began, and as you so crassly framed your riposte, “everyone shut up”, I would say this to you, Shut-up and grow up, your opinions are just that, opinions, and frankly none of them pass the smell test.


Cob

[Ohiowoman]

I've read through Brit's posts and the replies and I think I've figured out Brit's position regarding Americans. If you want President Bush re-elected, are anti-abortion and support the private ownership of guns, you apparently qualify, in Brit's opinion, as an &quot;American idiot&quot;.

The fact that when all else failed, he used the ever-popular Hitler reference, profanity and said &quot;everyone shut up&quot; proves his immaturity.

Brit, if you're still out there, I don't believe terrorists want to &quot;eat (my) babies&quot;, as you put it, *but I do know they want to kill us. And if you don't think they do, you're just fooling yourself.

[azwhitewolf]

Wow.

I see I arrived late to the party. *
Quote[/b] ]I agree with the person that said arguments are good, just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, here is one of my relevant song by my favourite band:

Don't wanna be an American idiot.
Don't want a nation that under the new media.
And can you hear the sound of hysteria?
The subliminal mind**** America.

After reading your posts, I find it interesting that included in your &quot;favorite rock bands&quot; is Green Day. *A band that claims its song lyric inspiration is based on boredom, smoking dope, tributes to masturbation, and hatred of conformity and authority.

I'm not sure I'd say this is exactly a guiding light that I'd by publically admitting. *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rotflo.gif http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rotflo.gif *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rotflo.gif
Quote[/b] ]Hey, this is me being controlled. When are you going to wake up and realise that (shock, horror) its not just me? Milllions think the way i do. Millions.
Yeah. *Millions think that making a nation of Muslims is worth happily killing for. *

Thousands think killing jews and black people are STILL noble causes. *

Numbers don't mean anything. *What you say makes you &quot;another brick in the wall&quot;. *Congratulate yourself. *You're not an individual. *You're following the herd.
Quote[/b] ]Im only 16 and have definitely had a more limited view of the word than you have, but ive seen enough already.
You've seen enough already OF what TO what? *

Make an opinion based on what you've seen, rather than what you know? *

Learning that war kills, and always does kill innocent civilians? *Did you stop to consider that war has also stopped communism? *Nazism? *Slavery? *Fascism? *

Interesting that you're pro-choice then. *Innocents die there too. *Perhaps you live in a world where you'd like to have consequence free sex. *It's not uncommon, but say it like it is.
Quote[/b] ]You might want to brush up on the amount of money the United States is throwing into that black hole, Brit! Maybe you could do your term paper on it.
I agree with LKH. *We've spent enough on AIDS. *Since it's an issue that you hold so close to your heart, why not vote for your government to pull a stipend out of your paycheck for Africa? *

It's your turn. *And since your heart is SO much bigger than us greedy stupid Americans, you should do it simply to show us our folly!
Quote[/b] ]Wow. I certainly have caused something havent I.
Not really. *Logging into an American website, run by patriotic Americans and saying that &quot;America sucks&quot; &quot;we are blind to everything but a f*gg*ts flag&quot; and &quot;I'm glad I'm not American&quot; and watching people defend their country isn't exactly &quot;causing something&quot;.

Spitting on that which some consider sacred. *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

Nothing more than hitting a beehive with a stick. *Don't get too proud of yourself there. *
Quote[/b] ]Im not the monster you think i am
Yeah, you're so misunderstood. *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tqrolleyes.gif

Nah. *We were all young and stupid, and thought we were smarter than everyone else too at one point. *Then we grew up and started listening to something besides songs about beating your pud and smoking pot.
Quote[/b] ]So to everyone: shut up, if you want to argue then argue, but let me argue back.
So to you: *Shut up. *I will definately argue back. *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] ]85,000 people shouting &quot;George bush is a wanker&quot; is pretty special.
Well, according to Britans, calling someone a wanker is not exactly new. *They did it to 50 Cent (CLICK HERE) *when he was onstage. * (http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,14842,00.html) 55,000 of them. *
Quote[/b] ] I AM NOT A F****** IDIOT GEORGE BUSH IS IM TRYING TO PROVE A POINT THAT SENSIBLE, MATURE PEOPLE AND IMMATURE PEOPLE ALIKE HATE HIM.
What, you mean overpaid Hollywood actors who are outspoken against ANY war because they played one on TV? *

I'll bet you think Fareinheit 9-11 was a real documentary too, huh? *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rotflo.gif

Actually, America's strip clubs, NAMBLA, Fidel Castro, a Sandinista thug, and pagans are all supporting John Kerry. *Have it your way.

[MudPuppy]

Quote[/b] (nina123 @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 3:47 pm)]Mudpuppy,

Of COURSE you're free to disagree. *That was my whole point. *But just because people don't want to listen to you doesn't mean that you are being CENSORED. *

By all means if you want to say something, you are free to do so! But people are also free to tell you to shut up if they don't like what you say. *That's not censorship. *It's called a reaction.

Censorship is when the GOVERNMENT does it.

So what exactly is your point by posing this question anyway?
I wasn't disagreeing with YOU… I agree whole heartly.

My comments were aimed more at Brit's complaint.

[MudPuppy]

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 3:33 pm)]As for abortion, I think that a woman has the right over her own body, and if she thinks that she cannot go through with labour and look after a child, then abortion is the best option.
A woman has a right to choose for herself, up to the moment of conception. From that point forward, her 'choice' results in the death of another human being. Not to confuse you with facts, or belabor the obvious, but the DNA says it’s not ”her own body”, but, in truth, the life, body, and person of another human being which is being visited with poison, violent death, and dismemberment.

So, tell me, for what heinous evil is the one unborn being drawn and quartered? Enumerate to me that unborn child's crimes warranting it's demise. Which one of us choose who our parents were?

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 3:33 pm)]I believe in a multi-cultural, non-guns, Non-violent society and yes I am only 16. I have a damn sight better view of how our world should be than you lot. Im not an american idiot. Not all americans are, just some who are so blind to everything but a f****** flag. Im not the monster you think i am, 9/11 was tragic and horrific, but it was a kick up the backside for security.
You belong to a world which has never been seen in this one. For in this world, there is good and there is evil, along the consequences thereof. Meanwhile, while you’re waiting for the world to become that which is not, you must live and exist in this world which is, as it is. Your &quot;view of how our world should be&quot; is far from what it in fact is. This may be owing to your youth, so I’d suggest that you make the proper adjustment to this truth, or this world will make adjustment to you and you’ll not be long for it.

As horrific as 9/11 was, it is nothing compared to what it will be if we don't act decisively against those who wrought this evil. A few thousand will become many thousands, and many thousands can become millions in a heartbeat… An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 3:33 pm)] So to everyone: shut up, if you want to argue then argue, but let me argue back. Im entitled to my opinion and nothing you can say can change my mind.
Yes… You're most certainly correct that no one can change your mind. It is, after all, yours alone, so only you can change it. Here is the difference between the wise and the foolish, there is one thing a fool never changes; his mind.

Quote[/b] (Brit @ Sep. 14, 2004 -- 4:43 pm)] Ethiopia is a LEDC, ravaged by AIDs and poverty, does any rich fat cat with a gun on his shoulder and the american flag waving proudly in his hand care?
Actually, yes we do, did you see the posts here denoting the *contribution of the American people? Nevertheless, it is the problem of these nations, and it’s not our fault.

AIDS is 100% preventable, with just a behavior modification. It certainly isn’t an egalitarian disease like some seem to be. Like some others here, I also believe we’re throwing money down a rat hole that could be better spent; perhaps the survivors will show themselves wiser for having witnessed the calamities which visited the foolish generation before them.

As for famine and poverty, these are the effects of government policy. North Africa has ALWAYS been subject to draughts. Folly and state policy turns draught into famine.

What makes you think the ravages in these nations (famine, pestilence, and war) can be solved by American wealth given that they are chronicled in the whole of the continent and predate even America's founding? So then, why have you appointed us the arbiters and wardens of the Ethiopians?

[myownthinker]

It's great to see people with differing viewpoints - it would truly be terrible if everyone was united all the time.

[Basheva]

Quote[/b] ]It's great to see people with differing viewpoints - it would truly be terrible if everyone was united all the time.

Terrible? As in &quot;Thou Shalt Not Kill&quot;?

or

&quot;Thou Shalt not Steal&quot;?

or

&quot;We hold these truths to be self evident&quot;?

Differing opinions/viewpoints are a good thing, IF IF IF

those opinions/viewpoints are held from a knowlegable base.

What we have seen in this thread is not an example of differing opinions/viewpoints held from a knowledgable base.

[ReaganFan]

Quote[/b] ]As for abortion, I think that a woman has the right over her own body, and if she thinks that she cannot go through with labour and look after a child, then abortion is the best option.

I too feel that a woman has the right over her own body and has the right to choose. If she does not want to go through labor or care for a child then she has every right to choose. She can choose any form of birth control from the pill, patch, injection, condoms, diaphram, spermicidal cream, etc. However abortions should not ever be considered a form of birth control.

I find it interesting that you are against the hunting of foxes but support infanticide.

[Merika]

Quote[/b] (ReaganFan @ Sep. 15, 2004 -- 10:56 am)]I find it interesting that you are against the hunting of foxes but support infanticide.
Great point R! Have you ever noticed that the same people who want to save whales, hug trees, pity terrorists, get rid of sport hunting and abolish the death penalty are all PRO ABORTION!

Now...what kind of NORMAL person thinks it's okay to rip a child out of the womb of it's mother because the baby in INCONVENIENT.....but wants to keep some serial killer alive?

I have no way of rationalizing that sort of thinking. It befuddles me!

Arguing with someone THAT messed up is a waste of time.

[nina123]

about the abortion debate... I want to add my two cents, knowing that I just might get flamed. (I'm not even sure this is the right topic to address this)

I am pro-choice. No because I sanction the killing of babies as a means of birth control. But because I don't want a government condeming me to death if there was some birth complication that resulted in having to choose MY life or the baby's life. I think that decision should be made on a case by case basis, not some government entity.

Now, as for mothers that have babies just out of irresponsiblity, abortion is immoral and wrong and should be outlawed. Abortion should not be a means of birth control.

But forcing these unwed irresponsible moms to raise their children, that may be even more damaging. And these unwanted babies, what is society supposed to do with them? There's not a whole lot of demand for crack babies in the adoption lines. And most irresponsible people don't take care of their pregnancies or children very well.

Saying that, I think that a lot of societal problems are caused by the deterioration of values and the family. If parents would teach their daughters to be responsible and to plan, maybe there wouldn't be so many unwanted pregnancies and abortions. But there will always be stupid people and bad parents... and you can't do anything about that. It's not an easy solution, and I'm not sure there is any solution.

But I think if we want to prevent the slaughtering of innocents, we should attack the problem at the root. Not make an anti-abortion law to address it in the aftermath. We should address the larger issue of how our society encourages irresponsibility when it comes to women's sexual decisions with their bodies.

How to do this? I have no idea. If it were up to me, I'd line up all those people and shoot them all. But I'm an evil conservative.

No really, it starts in our homes, in our own families, it starts with each individual teaching responsibility to their own children. It's a utopian view, but that's really all any one person can do.

[Merika]

I'm not at all disagreeing with abortions when the child is severely sick or the mother's life is in jeopardy.

I have family members who were a young wonderful couple excited about their first child's birth. *First, it came out that the child had Turner's Syndrome....which they said they would deal with. After the 3 tumors were found in the brain and heart though....they made the decision to abort more for the child's lack of quality of life than anything else.

It was a terrible emotional trauma for this young couple and I always supported their decision.

I don't consider that a 'pro choice' stand....it's like you said....a case by case on MEDICAL emergency....choice.

[jimmyjoebob]

Quote[/b] ]Now...what kind of NORMAL person thinks it's okay to rip a child out of the womb of it's mother because the baby in INCONVENIENT.....but wants to keep some serial killer alive?

My following comments refer to those people advocating abortion on demand, particularly convenience abortions. Convenience abortions are the reason for the majority of abortions in this country, not medical, rape, or incest situations.
My stereotype for convenience pro-abortionists are :
A person that has a weak conscience. An illogical person.
A selfish, self centered, emotional person without compassion for innocent life, largely politically correct thinkers.

Quote[/b] ]I have no way of rationalizing that sort of thinking. *It befuddles me!

Rational, logical thinking has no part in their equation. These ingredients are discarded in their formula for resolving this issue for themselves, because these ingredients would not produce the resulting opinions they cling to. Emotions are weighted in place of these components.

I can understand people that oppose the death penalty, but not those that also support abortion on demand. An opposing opinion on these two subjects, where a pro-abortion view is held, reveal an insincere rational developing these views. You cannot logically say that you oppose the taking of life to support abolishing the death penalty, without it also applying to the abortion issue to give you an expected similar resulting opinion.

I can understand opinions that are anti-abortion and support the death penalty, if you base those opinions on the term &quot;innocent life&quot;.

http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif *http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[danwunderlin]

Terri

I know rules are rules, but it was good fun to see this kid get pummiled about the head and shoulders. Could you reconsider.... http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Merika]

HAHA Dan!

I have my own 15 year old....I've learned not to try to make sense to them! The DO know EVERYTHING at that age! http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[danwunderlin]

I've got a 19 year old step daughter that does, from time to time, remove her head from her storage orifice to concede that we, her mother and I, are not as dumb as she once supposed. My 17 year old step son, well, he's just a real good kid. But your point is well taken!! http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[SpicyTexan]

Quote[/b] (danwunderlin @ Sep. 15, 2004 -- 11:23 am)]I've got a 19 year old step daughter that does, from time to time, remove her head from her storage orifice to concede that we, her mother and I, are not as dumb as she once supposed. My 17 year old step son, well, he's just a real good kid. But your point is well taken!! http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
we have an 18 year old son, who is studying EE at UT Austin. I have to say that our son is much more mature than that brit, at least my son is more reseable when it comes to talking about politics, a fair conservative kid yet very talented. lucky us! Nina can prove this http://www.gopusa.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Interesting enough, his male friends are very conservative, but some of his female friends are liberal. I told the boys that it's because boys need to prepare themselves to support their family when they have one while (some)girls are just looking for a Mr. Right so that they can afford to live in their own little dream world without dealing with the reality, which leads them to the liberal world, a perfect world, even sharks can be human's friends!

[Merika]

Well OFCOURSE Spicy....that's cause he was raised in TEXAS and not the UK! HAHAHAHAHA!

[SpicyTexan]

Quote[/b] (Merika @ Sep. 15, 2004 -- 1:01 pm)]Well OFCOURSE Spicy....that's cause he was raised in TEXAS and not the UK! *HAHAHAHAHA!
dah! I totally forgot about this!!! Thanks, merika!